F and CC in Brass Band

[Steve Marcus]

...without the independance of the (3+1) 4th valve in my playing experience...a couple of pieces were, for me, physically impossible.

I can relate to that. Peter Graham probably had the BBb 3 + 1 tubas in mind when he wrote the opening obligato figure in Harrison's Dream. Playing the fast 16th note sequence of low concert C#, D#, E, F#, C#, D#, C#, D#, E, F#, etc. on a CC tuba (with the loud wood block preventing the basses from dragging!) was extremely difficult. Concert C# requires all 5 valves on a CC tuba. But on the 3 + 1 BBb, the split fingering is so much more manageable on those notes!

Rick Denney wrote:
The competiveness is the purpose of brass banding, and therefore it must be the prime motivation.

Chuck(G) responded:

Not at all. I suspect there are a fair number of brass band musicians who would take strong exception to your statement. I belong to a non-competing brass band...

In fact, the annual NABBA competition even accommodates bands that are not wanting to compete head-to-head. Bands who would like adjudicators' comments but no comparative/competitive scores can enter the Exhibition Section. Bands that use instrumentation that does not conform to traditional British brass bands can enter the Open Section.

[Allen]

...
I can relate to that. Peter Graham probably had the BBb 3 + 1 tubas in mind when he wrote the opening obligato figure in Harrison's Dream. Playing the fast 16th note sequence of low concert C#, D#, E, F#, C#, D#, C#, D#, E, F#, etc. on a CC tuba (with the loud wood block preventing the basses from dragging!) was extremely difficult. Concert C# requires all 5 valves on a CC tuba. But on the 3 + 1 BBb, the split fingering is so much more manageable on those notes!
...

We're only talking about 4 or 5 valves here. Don't tell this to a woodwind player unless you want to hear him laugh.

I don't see what's wrong with stating that there is a lot of orthodoxy in many British brass bands. That's the way the players and their audiences like it, so why not. It's not my cup of tea -- I find a little goes a long way with me. However, for those who enjoy it, go for it!

I always wondered about the business of swapping players among instruments -- the usual excuse for perpetuating the brain-damaged notion that people should routinely read music at other than concert pitch. I don't think I really want to hear a bunch of cornet players playing tubas, nor a bunch of tubists attempting to entertain me with cornets. Anyway, who can seriously argue that learning fingerings is the main skill you have to have to play a brass instrument?

Cheers,
Allen

[Chuck(G)]

I always wondered about the business of swapping players among instruments -- the usual excuse for perpetuating the brain-damaged notion that people should routinely read music at other than concert pitch. I don't think I really want to hear a bunch of cornet players playing tubas, nor a bunch of tubists attempting to entertain me with cornets. Anyway, who can seriously argue that learning fingerings is the main skill you have to have to play a brass instrument?

I don't think that "swapping" was really intended, but rather that the idea had its roots in much earlier brass notation. It does have the advantage that you can teach a roomfull of new brass players fingerings without having to cut the bass-clef readers out of the herd.

I suppose one could also argue that transposing TC notation tends to lessen the need for ledger lines--although tenor clef pretty much does that for trombone and Eb bass is already nicely situated.

[imperialbari]

Quite a thread to enter as a latecomer!

As for intonation, I do not buy the alleged benefits of being commonly out of tune. If a player plays in tune on either of the 4 common pitches of tubas, he will be in tune with any other player playing in tune on any other of the available pitches. Period!

It is downright silly, when bandmasters allow for out of tune playing on tubas. Why should we accept to be metered by lower standards than any other type of instrument? We thereby just contribute to the myth of brass players being badly educated lower middle class amateurs.

Being out of band upbringing my ears are best at home with Eb and BBb tubas. I can play an F, but not a CC, which is deeply ironic, as all of my thinking is in concert pitch from my working as a conductor and arranger.

My personal preference for an Eb, as often stated, is a Besson 981, but even I have to admit, that it is on the fat side of brass band needs. It is too overwhelming for the euphs and the bassbone. But then I bought it to fulfil my personal ideals.

Rotary tubas may be fine for orchestral purposes, but their overtone patterns do not support the sound integration, which is so desired in brass band playing. It may even be possible to argue, that any rotary tuba, even the best ones, is inferior to most piston tubas.

The reason is, that the rotor system invariably distorts the air-path in a fashion creating turbulences leading to non-desirable out-of-tune overtones distributed in non-even clusters (formants).

The sound concept of the new Philly tubist is extremely even. She plays piston instruments. She would fit within any top-brass-band without sticking out, even if she refuses to play anything but F and CC tubas.

To Andy, whom I consider a fine guy: When I took my York Master BBb to my most recent brass band, there was some frowning over it being bell front (the regular BBb player had gone to Iraq to do some engineering tasks far before the war).

But the reactions by my most trusted reference persons, including the conductor, were, that my playing was bigger and more in tune, than they ever had experienced from a BBb until then.

Today I also have a 1970 Besson New Standard 3+1 BBb. It better suits my reduced-by-age capabilities, and it is the first instrument allowing me honking out the double pedal on a BBb.

But I still think that brass bands would be better served with the larger than 4/4 old US style BBb’s, as long as they are acceptably in tune. And yes, I am fully aware, that my York Master is made in Germany. But it still is an American instrument by its playing features.

Already ranting I may also issue my take on the brass band as a musical vehicle:

Compared to the orchestra and to the concert band, it is a bland set-up. Blending has been taken far too far especially by Black Dyke under a certain director not named here. In 1978 I was far more impressed by the widespread colour palette of Besses o’the Barn.

But with the limited differences of colours, it is most important, that each of the instrument types:

Eb cornet
Bb cornet
Flugelhorn
Alto horn
Brit baritone
Euph
Tenor bones
Bassbone
Eb bass
BBb bass

defines and defends its own little territory of a sound slot.

Rotary basses will blur that soundscape. And I readily admit to my own crimes. I have played the cornet like a flugelhorn, the baritone like a bassbone or a euph, the tenor bone like a euph, and the Eb tuba like a BBb. And then the bassbone like a high-tech missile launcher (but also like a French horn).

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[Steve Marcus]

We're only talking about 4 or 5 valves here. Don't tell this to a woodwind player unless you want to hear him laugh.

Acknowledged. However, the challenge in that passage of Harrison's Dream is not just fingering--it's air. Those quickly articulated notes are all at the very bottom--but just above pedal--range on a CC tuba. At least on a BBb, you're another whole step above its pedal range!

[iiipopes]

Regarding playing with different pitched instruments, I relish the chance to play with a CC player, so that, just like the ophicliede example, we keep each other in intonation and pitch, especially like g on a BBb and g#/ab on the CC.

Regarding the notation, and keeping in mind the origins of brass banding, I'm wondering if the convention of everything in transposed treble clef save bass bone was for ease of teaching the various parts en masse.

Personally, brass band has become my favourite ensemble because of the nuance of color that is achieved by same pitched instruments of different bore. It's not that much different from playing organ and having different ranks of pipes of different tone colours at the same pitch. My only complaint is that bores and bell throats of cornets need to have a limit in this age of making everything bigger, so the distinction with flugel is not lost, and same with euphs so they will still blend with the rest of the low brass and not become the "leathered lip large scale diapason" of the band.

[NickJones]

as a uk player who has played Eb and Bb with some success can anyone answer the following
1. What are the pro's and cons of F and double C Tubas
2. are you trying to emulate a british sound or do you want to go for something different.
3. As pointed out earlier you have to sit and listen to a band live to experience what the sound is like , just hearing sections like the Tuba section of the Fairey Band 2002 in London was jaw droppingly good ( hats off to Andy Catt there ) , have players played british style tubas , or are they going on the thoughts of other people?

[windshieldbug]

Evolution vs. Intelligent Design...

Do I sound the way I sound because I play CC
- or -
Do I play CC because of the way I want to sound?

[Rick Denney]

There are a fair number of band directors in the band who have had their fill of contests, including the band's own director, who got his quota teaching band in Texas.

I'm glad to hear it.

To me, the sound is everything. I scarcely pay attention to what's visually happening onstage.

I didn't give any importance to the visual aspects or even mention them. I mentioned sound and emotional expression that cannot be recorded. I have never had tears well up listening to a CD, however inspired, but it has happened at live concerts. Something important is missing from CD's. But that something is not technical perfection.

Here's a stick of my own to poke and see what twitches. One of the big differences between concert (symphonic) band music and brass band music is that much concert band music was intended to be performed out-of-doors and most brass band music is intended to be performed indoors.

What do you think?

I think it's not true of most band music. Old marches, perhaps. But most of the good transcriptions and original works for band were either written for the military bands, for professional bands of the past, or for school bands. Most of those applications are indoors.

I agree with Bloke that much wind-band music lacks the sparkle of a wide tonal palette available in an orchestra. But I think it's the composing more than the instrumentation, because I have heard transcriptions and original works that had that sparkle (Hindsley's arrangements come to mind as a positive example; Reed's come to mind as being the more typical mezzo-mezzo sound). I haven't listened to enough brass band music to know how it fares in that scheme, but I suspect it's a more difficult challenge for composers.

From what I've heard about Texas school band competitions, I suppose I don't blame you one bit.

But it wasn't just that experience, and when I was there it wasn't nearly as bad as it is now. A couple of the bands I've been in had tuba sections where other players are so intent on competing that they constantly measure themselves within the section on the basis of technical precision, and completely forget that the purpose is to support the musical whole. That takes the reason for being there right out of it, at least for me.

Rick "for whom tuba playing is the antidote to natural competitiveness, not an expression of it" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

I think it's not true of most band music. Old marches, perhaps. But most of the good transcriptions and original works for band were either written for the military bands..

Military bands do most of their playing indoors? I thought the primary reason for military bands was for playing on the parade grounds, and at funerals and other ceremonies. What person in their right mind would create a huge band of some of the loudest wind instruments available for playing indoors?

, for professional bands of the past..

As in playing concerts in the park?

When I look at the LOC archives of 19th and early 20th century band photos, almost all are out of doors. OTOH, chamnber groups, dance and stage bands and orchestras are all taken indoors.

or for school bands.

Most school bands exist to play on the sports field. Many schools require concert band students to also do their hitch in the marching band. All of which leads to the wonderful dynamic control that US concert bands are known for--and probably is a factor in the impaired hearing of many retired middle- and high-school band directors.

About the only place I'll listen to a concert band is out-of-doors or from a CD or if I'm playing in one where I'm safely out of the line of fire of most of the louder instruments. (Although one year I recall sitting next to the bari sax player) Heaven knows, if I played flute or oboe, there's no way I'd play in a concert band without earplugs.

Stage and dance bands, whose application is primarily indoors, tend to be much smaller than the average concert band. Even a brass band, which boasts plenty of volume, has only 25 (or so, depending on percussion) players.

A bit off-topic, but does anyone else note that a lot of the brass band works being played nowadays sound more like they belong on a football field? Rhythmically complex with heavy percussion requirements, but somehow unsatisfying musically. Our band played Curnow's "River City Suite" last season, and it reminded me of something that I'd hear at a DCI competition.

Maybe I'm just getting old...

[Tubainsauga]

A bit off-topic, but does anyone else note that a lot of the brass band works being played nowadays sound more like they belong on a football field? Rhythmically complex with heavy percussion requirements, but somehow unsatisfying musically.

I would tend to agree with you, though there are also a lot of wonderful pieces being written. I'm lucky in that I get to listen to the Hannaford Street Silver Band a lot. They have a lot of very interesting and quite moving pieces written for them in addition to being one of the finest brass bands in North America. Oh, the BBb tubists use CCs, btw.

[Rick Denney]

Military bands do most of their playing indoors? I thought the primary reason for military bands was for playing on the parade grounds, and at funerals and other ceremonies.

If you'll read carefully, you'll note that I didn't say those three areas that motivate composition were all indoors. But I think you'll have to acknowledge that in each of those three areas, most of the performances are indoors. When a military band plays on the parade grounds, it does not play a Hindsley arrangement. It usually plays a Sousa or Fillmore march. I suspect the same is true for brass bands.

Most school bands exist to play on the sports field. Many schools require concert band students to also do their hitch in the marching band.

Some do, some don't. Usually, the boundary between the two doesn't line up with academic periods so it's a moot point.

But relatively little music is composed for outdoor performance, and it is specifically composed for that venue. You won't find high-school bands playing Toccata Marziale or the Holst Second Suite during a half-time show.

About the only place I'll listen to a concert band is out-of-doors or from a CD or if I'm playing in one where I'm safely out of the line of fire of most of the louder instruments. (Although one year I recall sitting next to the bari sax player) Heaven knows, if I played flute or oboe, there's no way I'd play in a concert band without earplugs.

You've obviously never played in a rock band. Plenty of people put themselves into the line of fire of 120 dB--far louder than any wind band even up close.

I've been in community and school bands for the last 35 years, and I'll bet that I've participated in 5 indoor performances for every outdoor performance of a full concert band. I've played outdoors with smaller ensembles FAR more often. And the repertoire for those relatively few outdoor gigs was specially composed for outdoor gigs and unlike the majority of what is available for wind band.

Chuck, you need to get out (or is it in?) more.

Rick "who wonders how many times the President's Own--as the full ensemble--plays outdoors" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

I think it's not true of most band music. Old marches, perhaps. But most of the good transcriptions and original works for band were either written for the military bands, for professional bands of the past, or for school bands. Most of those applications are indoors.

Well, here's some material for a poll, I think. I honestly don't know the outcome. But it would run something like this:

1. If you're a member of a military band (but not one of the elite DC-area bands, who are pretty much sui generis) out of the last 100 times you've played outside of rehearsal, what percentage has been out of doors?

2. If you belong to a high school band (marching, concert or otherwise) how many of your last 20 performances were out-of-doors?

Indoor concert bands are an anathema to me if I'm in the audience. They tend to be so loud that I can't hear them. I do far better if I can leave the hall and listen from the lobby. Extreme sound levels distort in my hearing are are not pleasant at all. It's also why I stay away from tuba recitals--there have been relatively few exceptions where a performer didn't feel the need to play loud enough to curdle the milk I had with my Wheaties that morning.

[GC]

That's one thing I enjoy about playing in a Civil War recreators' band: 2 Eb soprano cornets (one of ours is an Eb soprano flugelhorn, of all things); 2 or 3 Bb cornets; 2 Eb alto horns; 1 Bb tenor, 1 Bb baritone, and 1 Bb bass (the differences are in bore sizes; the bass is actually almost a euphonium, and he sometimes use one when the period horn is having problems); and 1 or 2 Eb contrabasses (tubas). It's one per part except for the tubas, and the size of the tuba section varies.

Our horns are almost all rotary-valved period instruments, with only a couple of modern horns and a couple of recreated instruments. This also means that they function best from A443-445.

It creates a nicely colored sound without too much middle and with a clear top. Smaller groups can get cleaner, shinier, more colored sounds that big groups just wash out. It's just another reason that NABBA and some other brass band orbanizations limit the size of the group to around 30. I shudder to think what a brass band with 100 or more members would sound like indoors.

Of course, outside is a different matter . . .

[jtuba]

We've tried various players (all very fine musicians), when playing F and the blend totally goes to pot.


Robert I. Coulter
BBb Bass - Georgia Brass Band
Tuba Coach - Georgia Youth Symphony Youth Brass Band

Thanks Rob. I played in the group's EEb section on several different tubas, mainly a 983. I had a 981 for a week that made my arm go numb and when I was getting ready to leave the group, I had to turn in the 983 and played my Gronitz F. I guess it was my playing on the latter instrument that led to the GBB's decision to ban F tuba Maybe if I had a Willson EEb...