Mic Placement in a Recording Studio

Z-Tuba Dude · Post by **Z-Tuba Dude** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:07 am

I am going to be doing a recording session soon, but don't have a lot of experience with studio work.

Does anyone have any advice for the placement of the microphone, to get the best tuba sound? I imagine that it should be placed fairly closely, but should it be pointed straight down the bell, or perhaps pointed at the edge of the bell, parallel to the plane of the "pancake". Any insights would be appreciated!

Any non-microphone things to watch out for???

Thanks!

tubafatness · Post by **tubafatness** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:40 am

Try not pointing the mic straight down the middle of the bell opening. That tends to capture the "worst" of the tuba sound. If you have a big room, with a lot of natural-sounding reverb, that would work best. But if you don't, stick the mic about two feet out, and towards the edge of the bell.

A.H.

Phil Dawson · Post by **Phil Dawson** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:23 am

What type of music are you recording? Are you recording solo work or as part of a group? What type of microphones are you going to be using? What kind of sound do you want to have in the recording? All of these factors are important in answering your question. A good place to start would be to identify a recording where you like the tuba sound (this is often called a comparable). After you have identified the sound that you want you can work with the recording engineer or seek advice as to how you can get that same type of sound with your playing and recording techniques. Microphone placement is an art that takes a lot of time and effort to learn. You may have to experiment with many different placements to achieve the sound that you want. In gerneral the closer the mic is to the sound source the more defined the attacks are but there is very little room sound (also called warmth and reverb). You want to be close enough to the mic to have good definition but far enough away to get a pleasing sound. There is no easy answer to your question.
Good luck, Phil

Alex C · Post by **Alex C** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:30 am

If you have to tell the recording engineer where to place the mic, you are wasting your money. He's suppose to know, that's why studio time costs so much.

If it's a home recording studio, the mic placement will depend on a variety of factors which will require trial and error. The factors include, but are not limited to: your instrument; the size of the room; type of microphone; recording equipment; eq adjustments; oh, heck.... etc. a bunch of times.

Boittom line: in a trial and error studio, your input will have as much value as that of an under-educated "engineer." A better studio will make a better recording.

Good luck.

Phil Dawson · Post by **Phil Dawson** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:00 am

Most recording engineers have not had a lot if any experiece recording the tuba. Most of their training and business is more in the area of pop music. Even if they have a lot of experience with jazz and classical music they are not likely to have a lot of experience with the tuba. Remember how few recordings are out there for us to buy. On sveral of his recordings Sam Pilafian lists his microphone selection although there is no mention of placement. You may be able to contact him and get some information. There are also articles in the archives of Mix Magazine that you can search on line about recording brass instruments that may give you insight about recording the tuba. There is a small section on microphone techniques in the Tuba Sourse book. I wrote a paper on the subject that I would be willing to share it with you.
To get the sound that you want will take work on your own and with your recording engineer and producer. You also need to consider the room that you are going to record in. As I said before there is no easy answer to your question but you can achieve the recorded sound that you desire with enough work and attention to detail.
Good luck, Phil

tubatooter1940 · Post by **tubatooter1940** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:17 am

I had a studio engineer tell me to play tuba into his high dollar mike in his main recording chamber. I heard way too many clanks and wheezes in the recording.
I was most pleased with my $100 Schure SM-57 on a tripod boom stand centered two feet out front of my recording bell. I heard a mellow tuba sound with no extra clanking or wheezing. I also got some extra edge to the sound when I put some more air into it.

Phil Dawson · Post by **Phil Dawson** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:35 pm

Indeed microphone selection is very important and if you dont want to hear the fine detail of your playing with all of the detail of what you are really doing then a shure sm57 is a great choice. For those that want more detail a better and more sensitive microphone will work better. Also playing behind a thick stage curtain will mellow out your sound although you wont have much detail to the attacks.
Phil

Phil Dawson · Post by **Phil Dawson** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:47 pm

This is always important but it is nice to look at what others have found that works so that you dont have to reinvent the wheel each time you try to do things. I thought that was why in music we are so fond of private teachers.
Phil

MaryAnn · Post by **MaryAnn** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:24 pm

I haven't ever run into a professional studio that has a clue how to record acoustic instruments; they always want to ram the mike as close as they can get, and the result is horrible.

I like the idea of taking in a recording whose sound you like, as a direct example for the sound engineer. Beware engineers who say they'll fix it in the mix; many people who have been around pop music for a long time have lost a lot of their high frequency hearing, and your recording will have a lot more highs in it than you want to hear. And since they are not tuba players, their idea of what a tuba sounds like (what they hear in the headphones once they shove the mike down the bell, or on the edge of the bell) is what you'll get on the recording unless you give them an example to work from. If their experience is recording electronic instruments, you'll have a hard road to get them to do something different from what they are used to doing.

Good luck.
MA

Phil Dawson · Post by **Phil Dawson** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:41 pm

Almost all good recording engineers are musicaians - many of them are quite good. Some of them play rock, some play jazz, some play many different styles and some are brass and even tuba players. It is worth seeking out an engineer that has a concept of what your instrument should sound like and can sound like. A good engineer can make you sound better than you really are. One of my favorite set-ups for recording the tuba is that I use an AKG 419 hypercardiod clip-on condenser mic clipped to the bell facing down into the bell but about 30 degrees of axis with the center of the bell. Then I use a high quality large diaphram condenser mic such as an AKG 414 or Nuemann U-87 about 6 - 10 feet out from the instrument and about 6 -10 up in the air pointed directly at the instrument. This mic can be set in cardiod, wide cardiod, or even omni for an even warmer sound. All of this of course depends on the room you are recording in. You can then mix the two tracks, time align if necessary and get a mix of very centered, dry sound from the clip on mic and a warm not quite as centered sound for the other mic.
Good luck, Phil

Phil Dawson · Post by **Phil Dawson** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:17 pm

That's what I use for a quintet type of set-up. There are different things that I would do for a solo situation. All you have to do is ask.
Good Luck, Phil

Slamson · Post by **Slamson** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:28 pm

this is a little embarrassing to say, but for a person who teaches audio recording techniques and makes a hefty part of his living producing audio, I'm always squeamish about recording the tuba - mostly because of my greater experience on the other end, i guess.

That being said, there's one necessity that I would add to the discussion, and that is that "THE" microphone choice and placement is not the end-all here. Yes, a good microphone should be used as "the" microphone, and I've had good luck with a large-diaphragm condenser such as the AKG414, AT4050 or the Shure KSM44. Placement is good generally at about 4 to 6 feet from the bell, with an angle designed to capture the "radiation" of the bell and not the direct sound, unless you're recording a polka band or something. The axis should be away from the "noisemakers", which would include valves, rattles, leaky embouchures, and windy-sounding throats (hey, look - you can hear all of this stuff...) usually this means approaching the player from behind - sort of "over the shoulder".

All of that process, however, needs to be balanced with the ambient environment of the room for the recording. Somewhere "out there" should be a stereo pattern of mics designed to capture the total room sound so that a combination of the "presence" microphone and the stereo pattern will provide the sound YOU want. I've had really good luck using the Royer RT24 in both the X-Y and the MS configurations, but the choice of patterns (and proximity) will always depend on the acoustics of the room. For those without mega-buck ribbon mics, a pair of cardiod condensers can work fine too. With mics and rooms, bigger is not always better (kind of what we say about our instruments, n'est pas?).

The best advice i've seen so far on this thread is that you should not rely solely on the expertise of the engineer. As musicans, you have a lot more innate ability to define the sound of your instrument in recordings than someone who learned audio recording "by the book".

Phil Dawson · Post by **Phil Dawson** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:32 pm

In a group situation you usually want to have an overhead pair (stereo) of microphones that captures the sound of the entire group. If the group is acoustic or mostly so then they are used to balancing (mixing) their sound the way they like it while they are playing. Thus most of the mixing is done while the tune is being played. It is good to have an individual mic on each instrument so that any problems with the way the overhead pair picks up the group can be compensated for. If the overhead pair picks up a sound than is too warm or wet you can also build the mix by using the individual mics for the core of the mix and adding the sound of the overhead pair in such amount that you get the warmth of sound that you desire. This is not always an easy process and it is why good sound engineers are worth their weight in gold. Always remember that your engineer is very important to the finished projectand that he or she is most likely highly trained and skilled. Also make sure that the engineer is familliar with the sound you are trying to achieve and if they are get them recordings to listen to.
Good luck, Phil

Z-Tuba Dude · Post by **Z-Tuba Dude** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:43 pm

Thanks, guys!

Your advice was very useful, and appreciated.

I did the recording project on Friday, and it went very well. I did do some homework before hand, based on suggestions made here, and it helped me to guide the recording engineer's decisions. I liked what I heard in the playback.

Thanks, again!

Phil Dawson · Post by **Phil Dawson** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:15 pm

So what did you do? What mic(s) did you use? Where they placed? What were the room acoustics like? What equipment and format did you record to? What ideas did we provide that were good or didn't work out? None of us gets to record the tuba often enough to not gain from the experience of others. Thanks, Phil

Z-Tuba Dude · Post by **Z-Tuba Dude** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:53 pm

Well, this was a "hired gun" gig, so I wasn't in a position to give too much advice to the engineer. There were 5 of us (trumpet, horn, trombone [doubling on bass tbn], a reed player, and tuba).

I was experimenting on my own, and found that positioning my home mic about 2 feet away from the bell, at an angle of about 30-45 degrees off the "plane" of the bell rim, produced a good result.

I found, as others mentioned, pointing the mic directly down, at the throat of the horn (still 2 feet away), produced a gritty, noisy tone. Pointing the mic directly at the edge of the bell, produced a very smooth sound (a little too smooth for my taste). I split the difference, and got clearer attacks, while maintaining a nice sound.

(I should mention, that I tried the same mic positions, with 2 different horns, and discovered that the results were a little different for each horn).

Thanks, again to everyone who helped!