Besson Front Action Compensating F Tuba

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:26 am

With that record-high leadpipe, how do you keep from conkin' yerself in the noggin with the bell rim when you play the thing?

Z-Tuba Dude · Post by **Z-Tuba Dude** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:03 am

DP wrote:A PERFECT example of why it is NOT a "shame" that Besson (if it hasn't yet) will disappear forever.

Well, as a happy owner of a 983 Eb, I am not happy about Besson's financial state.

I am looking for some of those rubber spring sound dampers, if anyone has a lead on where to get them.

Thanks!

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:22 am

Z-Tuba Dude wrote: I am looking for some of those rubber spring sound dampers, if anyone has a lead on where to get them.

It is impossible to disagree with you about the efficiency of the Besson spring dampers. They came with my 981 Eb. Since then I bought 2 or 3 sets for some of my other basses.

I used to be good in handling a sharp knife. This no longer is a type of tool, which I like to handle.

Still it must be possible to find a dense oil-resistant material, from where you can cut, what effectively are shaped rubber shims.

The shape is not the main factor. Neither is the exact roundness, but the center hole allowing for venting through the botton cap is most important.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:20 pm

bloke wrote:What does it matter whether this instrument is playable? I was under the impression that F tubas are simply the toys of the idle rich...??

Why, I have one, and the height of the rebound from the floor in nothing short of incredible!

tubaman5150 · Post by **tubaman5150** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:57 pm

I had a chance to play one of the Besson prototype F tubas, and the intonation was not workable.
Not even for an F tuba.
Building a compensating F tuba is like trying to extinguish a fire with napalm.

joshwirt · Post by **joshwirt** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:26 pm

I will say that unless you can play this particular horn before purchasing, then stay away. I played the prototype that made it to the US several years ago and it was one of the worst instruments I've ever played.

However.....

I played another one of these back in November while I was back in Manchester. One of the guys at the RNCM picked a used one up in Wales at a local music store and it ROCKED! The intonation was no better/worse than the Yamaha F's and it had a kickin' low register as well. I think that Ollie just ended up buying the only one Besson made that didn't deserve to be scrapped and melted down.....

It's a shame they couldn't make it work because the 983 is a great horn and to have one in F would be nice. I'd be curious to see if they'll ever get the 3+1 F off the ground....doubt there's much market for it to be honest.

-Josh

Uncle Buck · Post by **Uncle Buck** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:22 am

tubaman5150 wrote:Building a compensating F tuba is like trying to extinguish a fire with napalm.

Why does a compensating system work for an EEb tuba, or a BBb Euph, but not for an F tuba?

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:31 am

Uncle Buck wrote:Why does a compensating system work for an EEb tuba, or a BBb Euph, but not for an F tuba?

Because they're always overcompensating, driving red Corvettes, wearing sleeveless shirts, smoking Camels, etc.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:45 pm

Boanerges wrote:Didn't Boosey & Hawkes build a compensating F-Tuba with three top-action pistons and one side action piston for Gerard Hoffnung? I have this notion that so was the case - I could be wrong, however...

I don't thnk it was specifically for Hoffnung, but they did produce a very small F and a CC in 3+1 (and 3+0) compensating style in the 60's. Arnold Jacobs did his recording of the VW concerto using one of the Fs. IIRC, the intonation on the F wasn't remarkable. The CC's were pretty decent.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:13 pm

The problem with building a comp F is that it is too easy to be lazy and use and Eb block & bugle, which, of course, has the comp loops too long to intonate properly, and the wrong taper to the bell, which also causes intonation problems. To build one properly requires a complete reengineering of the calculations for the comp loops and taper, among other things. And if you use valves that are too small in diameter so the 2nd valve comp loop is not crimped, then you lose low register, and if you use valves large enough to give a solid low register, you may crimp the 2d comp loop and cause stuffiness. Besson 3-valve comp baritone players have for years accepted 23 as being slightly flat so the 2nd valve comp loop would not cause stuffiness.

KarlMarx · Post by **KarlMarx** » Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:42 pm

bloke wrote:What does it matter whether this instrument is playable? I was under the impression that F tubas are simply the toys of the idle rich...??

Like TN plantation owners with real islands in their pools?

Bob Kolada · Post by **Bob Kolada** » Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:44 pm

Oh Klaus...

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:58 pm

Besson Sovereign F Tuba. 19%22 (480mm) bell, full compensation System. 4 Front Action piston valves. Diameter through valves No. 1-3 = 0.750%22 (19mm). Diameter through valve No. 4 = 0.790%22 (20mm).jpg

Demonstration/prototype Besson Sovereign 985 F Tuba. 19" (480mm) bell, 4/4 size. Full compensation System. 4 Front Action piston valves. Diameter through valves No. 1-3 = 0.750" (19mm). Diameter through valve No. 4 = 0.790" (20mm)

Which places it close to the dimensions of the Besson 995 CC tuba. Definitely not based on parts from any Besson Eb tuba.

Jess Haney · Post by **Jess Haney** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:47 am

Z-Tuba Dude wrote:
DP wrote:A PERFECT example of why it is NOT a "shame" that Besson (if it hasn't yet) will disappear forever.
Well, as a happy owner of a 983 Eb, I am not happy about Besson's financial state.

I am looking for some of those rubber spring sound dampers, if anyone has a lead on where to get them.

Thanks!

Willson has a set that you gan get through deg. They fit on the bottom valve caps. I dont know if thats what your looking for but its an idea.

Jess Haney · Post by **Jess Haney** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:53 am

Richard Brown wrote:I came across this front action compensating Besson F for sale in the U.K. Looks like a modified 983 valveset and tubing on a 981 body and bell. Perhaps a prototype? Has anyone had the opportunity to play on it? Any observations? Thanks!
Rich

http://www.pamelasmusic.co.uk/images/Ph ... is%20d.jpg" target="_blank

I have also seen and heard stories about this little F. I have also seen some pics of the top side F that was producted long ago and from what I have heard they are very saught after. Whether or not they are playable or just wall mounts at resturant is beyond my knowledge.

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:54 am

bloke wrote:Is this still for sale?

(bump)

bloke "Folks posted in this thread who are no longer amongst us."

The specimen mentioned by the OP is no longer for sale. I had planned on buying it, but the price had too much of a mark up compared to the price asked by Besson, when they gave up on the project and sold the 10 prototypes. Unfortunately for me somebody else was willing to pay the price asked, not by Pamela’s music, but by a brass repairman in Pamela’s musical environment.

As I see it the 985 project was an attempt of getting a share of Yamaha’s market for the YFB-822. Had they made an F equivalent of the 983 Eb, they might have gotten a much better instrument that had taken significant shares of the market for the YFB-621.

Klaus

Lectron · Post by **Lectron** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:29 pm

Maybe no-one never tried it with the proper gap....

Lectron · Post by **Lectron** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:45 pm

DP wrote:
Lectron wrote:Maybe no-one never tried it with the proper gap....
The proper gap is as far as possible between you and that horn!

Well...That should sure take care of any intonation issues.

Thank you sir for your good and always professional advice

You are a true gentleman

GC · Post by GC » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:29 am

I'm not an F tubist, but I found the one of those I tried about a year and a half ago to be very easy to play, well in tune, and with easy low and high registers. It felt like playing a really good Eb. I'd have bought it if I'd had the cash.

Lectron · Post by **Lectron** » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:13 am

imperialbari wrote: Demonstration/prototype Besson Sovereign 985 F Tuba. 19" (480mm) bell, 4/4 size. Full compensation System. 4 Front Action piston valves. Diameter through valves No. 1-3 = 0.750" (19mm). Diameter through valve No. 4 = 0.790" (20mm)

Which places it close to the dimensions of the Besson 995 CC tuba. Definitely not based on parts from any Besson Eb tuba.

The bottom bow, throat and shall looks like from a 981

Do you think maybe the choice of a 19/20 valveset is to try keeping the taper less aggressive
toward the larger gauged tubing more than making it a 8va basso monster?

TubeNet

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