Navy/Military Bands

[sandiegotuba]

Are Marines that retire after 20 years of service having never been to war REALLY considered Marines? I think so. They were ready to do their job if needed at all times.

Yes they are, and i've never argued that fact Do not put words into my mouth implying these allegations.

Easy there SanDiego. I was in no way intending to "put words in your mouth". I brought this up as a way to look at the topic from another point.

Seems as if you have an axe to grind on this subject. I respect your right to have an opinion even if I do not agree with it.

Cameron Gates
USMC

I reacted so strongly to your use of this example because I want to make it clear that's not what I was trying to say. When such an example is used some one that doesn't know the whole situation might just assume that I had said something of the sort.

I have no axe to grind on this issue, I am explaining my point of view. I could say you have an axe to grind by you insisting that your point of view is right. Which I am not saying that you do. I want people that come into this discussion midway to understand my part, and not what it looks like I said.

I'll break it down this way. In every sense of the word legally they are entitled to be called Marines. So yes they are Marines. Does that mean they understand the other aspects of what it is to be a Marine. Most likely not. Does that mean that I think they're incapable of understanding? No.


To me them calling themselves Marines is the same me calling myself an infantryman. I wear the same uniform, I shoot a rifle, and I have humped with a pack on my back. Does that mean I am a grunt? Nope.

They wear the uniform, they get the hair cut, they perform the ceremonies, and have to follow the UCMJ. Does that make them Marines? In my opinion, no. They are filling a role they have been tasked by the government to fulfill because they meet the requirements. What is the difference between an independent contractor truck driver driving supplies in Iraq, and a Soldier in Motor T driving the same supplies. Nothing really except who is behind the wheel. That truck driver wouldn't dare call himself a soldier.

I myself am not even making the claim that I am more "Marine" than people in the Presidents Own. I haven't even been deployed. Unless you count going to New Orleans for mardi Gras twice, but that's a warzone of a completely different type. By all rights my only claim to being a Marine is my earning of the title by graduating boot camp. I have no problem with this either. I am not trying to delude myself by thinking I am really a "Marine".

[Cameron Gates]

Msgt Gates,

I think that I was the one who opened up this can of worms about who's the better band of all the services. The topic can be very much so Tuba related if we might be apprised of what goes into the regimen of the *President Own* band. Could it maybe be the amount of rehearsal time or the sheer number of performances each year or that they play for Heads-of-State and the highest office-holders in America which would mean that they have to be on their toes, both literally and figuratively?

Maybe because they exemplify such a thoroughgoing professionalism in all what they do - think of the Navy's Blue Angels or the Air Force Thunderbirds - everybody on the team takes an inordinate amount of pride in what they do - nothing is left to chance - all the *i's* are dotted and all the *t's* are crossed.

*And Heaven's scenes are guarded by US Marines*

OOOOOOORAAAAAAAH
Boanerges

Boanerges, I really can't compare the USMB with the other DC bands due to the fact that I have not heard the other groups much. I CAN however say that the level of the individual musicians across the groups seems to be very equal. Everytime I do a civilian job with musicians from the other services I am floored by the level of performance.

One thing I can say about the USMB is that we have a big-ole-buttload of tradition and history. The group is 200+ years old. The sense of history that new members get is really remarkable. From ancient pictures that hang in the bandhall to the (never exaggerated) stories about players and events of the past, the history of the band lives each day we go to work.

I just love going to rehearsal, opening up an old transcription printed on old yellow paper covered with tape and seeing the pencil markings from the tuba players of the past. Some of these markings can go back a century or more. Also impressive are the 75 year old smashed bugs from outdoor concerts stuck to the music. Some of these bug guts are circled and dated. This makes me believe that the sense of band history in the members goes back a long ways.

I can't believe that we "dot our I's" any different than other DC bands. If there is a perceived difference it just might be due to each member's pride in the long history of the band and the fact that every member knows their place in that history.

Sorry for the ramble. It is late and I'M ON LEAVE. Damn Tubenet.

[sandiegotuba]

I want to clarify, that my observations are only of the some 20-30 different military fleet and field bands I have had the opportunity to see during my time in the military. I am in no way trying to compare the premier bands against one another.

I think at that level the difference in quality would be negligible if any.

[WoodSheddin]

Sean,
You're in one of those fancy bands. You got credentials? You a real soldier, a trained killer?

Trained killer? Sure, I was trained to kill. So were all soldiers that went through basic training. If we absolutelly had to any of us in Pershing's Own should be able to pick up a rifle and do what would be needed. Some of us could certainly use refreshers, but we are first trained at Basic Combat Training. Luckely for me it is HIGHLY unlikely that I will ever have to do so.

The Army consists of many many jobs of which the majority are not front line combat types. Just because a soldier might be pushing pencils or punching a calculator does not mean he is not an American Soldier.

The 11 Bravos are the primary reason for the Army existing in the first place, but the support people also serve a vital role or they would be eliminated.

We in the special Army bands don't go to AIT. We don't go to BNOC, ANOC, or the Sergeant Major Academy. We also for the most part don't do any training which is not directly related to performing musical ceremonies or stage performances.

The only Army stuff we do, like Dean explained earlier, is a PT test twice per year and have to make weight standards. Those are largely for appearance reasons moreso than combat readiness. We also have to follow te usual military protocols regarding uniforms, and military bearing.

We are American Soldiers in the band. But, even though we crack jokes about the infantry we work with every day, just like they crack jokes about the band, I know that most all of us have a deep respect for what those guys wearing purple hearts and bronze stars with valor have done. Most all of us in the band who put in our 20 years will never experience what an 11 Bravo will have to endure, and for that we are gratefull. Those guys are loaded up into HUMVEEs and perform their assigned missions regardless of who told them to do it or for whatever reasons the politicians decide.

I am an American Soldier, but I am certainly not infantry.

Are members of The President's Own "real" Marines? Honestly I don't know or frankly don't care all that much. I know they have the best band in the entire United States of America and are lucky enough to perform some of the greatest literature in the library for some VERY high profile jobs. I am jealous as hell, but I am sure they are also just as envious of my sweet Sousaphone.

[sandiegotuba]

They wear the uniform, they get the hair cut, they perform the ceremonies, and have to follow the UCMJ. Does that make them Marines? In my opinion...

The "THEY" of which you are speaking have special clearances and are in "harm's way" in a manner that the average enlisted man or woman will never be asked to be involved. The folks that "They" serve have some BATs on them 24/7 (that would be big *** targets). Same as being in Iraq, hell no, but with the way things are going, I sure as hell would want to be a big, silvery target for some psycho.

Just as a "FYI" and you may already know this, but you have been conversing with "they" on this topic. "They" are very patient, professional, and polite.

Brush up your excerpts and put down the rifle, Marine!

But, I'm getting the impression that you might be in this picture:

Why do you have to insult me if I am trying to have an earnest discussion on my opinion. Is the fact that I have an opinion that's different from yours make me automatically a whiny cry baby loser. If you look at posts I am doing my best to keep this conversation civil, and without name calling, or in your case implying with pictures. Before you imply that I am a whiny cry baby you should probablly take a look in the mirror, and leave your insults to places where some one might think they're funny.

If you want to have a conversation, speak your mind. If you have to use pictures to illustrate your points, you might want to work on your critical thinking skills.

[sandiegotuba]

I understood what you implied. I was trying to get you to express yourself without using pictures.

I'm not concerned about the practices of other armed services, because frankly I don't care about them. I realize i'm not the first nor the last to have this discussion.

I'm not advocating for any medical profession to be required to go into boot camp. What I am saying is that if some one is to be called a Marine, and be an enlisted member of the armed forces they should go to boot camp. If the government decides to give them a title that I have earned the hard way, so be it nothing I can do about it.

As far as me not understanding what it's like having a BAT on my ***. I would like you to come march Mardi Gras in New Orleans with a sousaphone and tell me that's not a BAT. At one specific parade they throw coconuts.

[Mike Finn]

I would like you to come march Mardi Gras in New Orleans with a sousaphone and tell me that's not a BAT. At one specific parade they throw coconuts.

That brings back memories! I had a whole pitcher of beer dumped down my bell one night! Mardi Gras season was a bear, with something like 14 parades/balls in 10 days if I remember. I much preferred the "Irish-Italian" parade, even though they threw potatoes, cabbages, and other veggies, at least you could take it home and make a good stew!
As far as the real Marine thing, I won't touch that with a ten foot pole, except to say that MSgt Gates post about tradition made it a lot easier for me to consider them as such. Hell, I had enough trouble convincing the grunts in the barracks on Okinawa that the band there were real Marines, even though we trained in the same jungle as they did. My favorite was when I told one of them that instead of Boot Camp we all had to take an MCI (correspondance course) on push-ups!
Semper Fi
MF

[joebob]

I've known a couple of people who joined before college. Both ended up digging ditches in Kosovo while serving with their band(this was a few years ago). Considering Iraq, Afghanistan, and all the other mideast conflict (just watch your evening news) as well as North Korea, I would assume that being deployed to a war zone is a real possibility. If being deployed to a war zone is a deal breaker for you, then I would audition for premiere bands only and/or go to college.

Also, your recruiter will lie through his teeth to you to get you to sign up. He will tell you whatever you want to hear. You are doing the right thing by seeking info on this board. Better yet would be to actually talk to at least a couple of people who have enlisted in the military to be in the band program. They are more likely to give you an honest representation of what it is like.

[Mike Finn]

oppinion about joining before college or after college

I joined right out of high school, (Desert Shield/Storm era) and had a great experience. At that time, in the Marines anyway, the number of folks with college degrees was pretty low. There were even a few folks with Ed. degrees who had taught school for a few years and quit to join the service! It seems like lately, more and more folks are coming in with at least a few years of college, and many with degrees. In my opinion, this has probably raised the level of musicianship in the fleet/field units a bit, but I can't speak for how a college educated soldier might feel. There have been some decent threads on the School of Music (SOM, or AFSOM) and a quick search might yeild some useful information.

If i make it into a band, will i be deployed to fight?

First, if you're a decent player (all-county, all-district, whatever they have in TX) you can be pretty sure you'll "make it into" at least a regular (fleet/field) band. These units are deployable, and with things going the way they are lately, you had better really love your country and be willing to lay your life on the line for it, because you just may be asked to do that. Bands deployed to combat zones may perform some music to boost troop morale, or various local civilian functions, but in all likelihood you will be perfoming military duties as well.

do I get to audition before I enlist?

Make absolutely certain that you audition for a bandsman BEFORE you sign anything. Your recruiter may or may not know anything about the band field, and they may just try to get you to sign up and worry about the band later. Make sure (if you go this route) that you are gauranteed, in writing, the "Musicians' Enlistment Option" or whatever it's called in whichever branch of the service you choose. Most likely, your recruiter will put you in touch directly with the nearest post band, and set up an audition for you. Scales, sightreading, prepared piece. (Air and Bouree is fine for a regular band, if you're going for a premier unit they only hold auditions when there are openings.)
Hope this helps!
MF

[brattom]

Here are some random thoughts...

Figure you are likely to be deployed at some point in your enlistment. However, I believe the number of bands deployed is lower now than say 2 years ago. I would guess that reserve bands are more likely than others to get deployed. Some of the other guys might have a better idea than me.

From a benefits package, the Army and Navy have respective college funds that supplement the GI Bill. I am not sure what the details of the Navy program is, but this is the page for the Army benefits.

http://bands.army.mil/jobs/currentbenefits.asp

If you go to college first, the Army has the college loan repayment program. The are additional $$$ bonuses if you have some amount of college credits. Most of the people I work with took advantage of those. You can't use the loan repayment and the GI Bill/College Fund together - one or the other.

If the Air Force is still under it's hiring freeze, then that might not be an option. There was a recent thread about some of the AF band program issues going on right now. My understanding is that the AF auditions for specific spots in specific bands. Each band holds it's own auditions.

According to this, the Navy does not seem to be looking for tuba players right now.

http://www.npc.navy.mil/CommandSupport/ ... rtunities/

If you join the Army, Navy or Marines, you will end up here for a while:
https://www.npdc.navy.mil/css/som/

If given the choice between UNT and joining the military, I would say go to college. The military will be there when you graduate. Once you choose to delay going to college, the odds are greater that for some reason you may end up never going to college.

In addition, the opportunities for advancement in any career (in and out of the military) will be greater with a college degree. From a musical perspective, I would say that the opportunities you would get, especially at a place like UNT, would be far greater in college than in the military. Everyone should get to know a few string players, composers, conductors, music theorists, and even musicologists (as much as that hurts) at some point . If you still want to sign up, then you've got all that extra knowledge and experience to give to Uncle Sam.

However, if you feel you are just not right or ready for college, then there is some great music being made all over the world in US Military bands.

Tom

[lgb&dtuba]

You specifically mentioned the Navy band program. If I was you I'd start here:

http://www.npc.navy.mil/CommandSupport/ ... rtunities/

(oops, I see that link has already been posted. Still a good place to look.)

You'll note that just like other bands in the "real world" you have to audition for open positions. I see that as of this posting there aren't any open tuba slots in any of the Navy bands listed there.

In this day of budget cuts and demand for these slots you may find that you'll be facing stiff competition for a tuba slot, just like everywhere else.

Other than what anyone can see on the web site I have no specific information about military bands. I was regular Navy during Vietnam - but not a musician.

Jim "Iceland was as far away from Vietnam as I could get and still be on the planet" Wagner

[greatk82]

Before I speak to heavily on the mission of deployed bands, I must inform everyone that I am not currently deployed, so must of my info is second hand. I was deployed to Iraq Apr 2003-Mar 2004 and again Dec 2005-Jan 2006. My unit, the 4th Infantry Division Band is still in Iraq, but I was Medically Evacuated due to non-battle related injuries sustained during my first tour.
On our 1st tour, our mission was largely military for the first 2 months. The band, a 40-person unit, was responsible for perimeter security of the presidential palace compound in Tikrit, Iraq. After we were relieved of that duty, our mission became largely musical. In our remaining 9 months, we played and toured all around the theater. Our rock/pop band "Prime Mover" conducted over 164 Combat Missions or gigs to the rest of the world. This usually included waking up early, loading up all of our gear into a 5ton and a HUMVEE, getting our full battle rattle and convoying to whatever FOB or camp we were playing at. The group was 12-15 strong, so we had plenty of firepower to secure our own convoys. After a few months, however, CENTCOM required us to have three vehicle convoys, so we began to require requesting units to provide trucks and security personel. Once we arrived at a site, it was all music. We would get some water and chow, set up, sound check, eat dinner and then entertain. It is amazing how a little taste of home or the pride of a song like "God Bless Texas" can raise the moral of tired, homesick soldiers. Additonally, our other active groups were the Tuba Euphonium Quartet, Latin/Salsa Band, Dixie/2nd line group, Brass Quintet and Jazz Combo. These groups provided moral as well, but generally on a smaller scale. We performed daily in chow halls and chapel services, as well as opening for the rock band. As many here might remember, we even hosted TUBACHRISTMAS IRAQ 2003 from Sadam's Palace in Tikrit!
Did it suck? Of course it did. We were hot, tired, lonely, scared and frustrated. Our families were thousands of miles away. For a while, we were lucky to get one bottle of water per day when the temp was exceding 140 degrees.
Was it worth it? Absolutly! As I previously mentioned, I wouldn't trade this experience for anything. My wife was also deployed at the same time. She was a geospatial intelligence analyst serving with 3rd Brigade Combat Team. We only met a few days before redeploying to the states and had very different experience, but we both agree that given the chance, we wouldn't change anything. I feel that she had it much worse than I did, as she left her two children, 6 and 5, with her ex-husband. At that time, contacting home was difficult and phone calls happened once a month at best.
I hope that I haven't strayed too far off topic, but I wanted to try to explain the postives of a deployment. I was able to practice 2-3 hours a day while deployed. If I hadn't broken my hip and back, I might have kept that up, but I couldn't very easily hold my horn. Even now I have a difficult time playing. Like anything, deployment is what you make of it. Serving in Iraq is an honor, one which I would gladly have again as soon as this hip heels. Additionally, I would gladly take SSG Chisham with me. Most of those skills from BCT probably haven't faded too much.

[Barney]

I wanted to know some people's opinion about joining before college or after college, and auditions, and deployment...

You should contact Karl Hovey. He lurks around this board occasionally and can be found in the memberlist. He started at North Texas, left to play in a Navy Fleet band, went back to NT and finished his degree, and now plays in the Navy Band in DC. Although his information about fleet bands and NT/Don Little will be a bit dated, he HAS done the things you are interested in and may be able to provide you with some insight.

[joebob]

Just want to say "Thank You" to TJ for your service. We in the U.S. should always be grateful for what people like you and your wife are doing for us.

[Barney]

Being deployed somewhere isnt a big deal as long as im playing my tuba, not fighting, thats what i want to know

Did you read this? http://www.npc.navy.mil/CommandSupport/ ... c/FAQs.htm

Here's the official Navy answer to your question:
We are at war. The Global War on Terrorism affects everyone in the military. As a Musician, you will not be trained for armed combat. However, there may be times that you will be required to stand watch or duty at the base where you are assigned. This may require small arms qualifications. Also, there are times when you may be in harms way. As a Musician, you may be aboard a ship at sea entertaining the crew. That ship may be operating in support of a current war or conflict. The same may occur on land - your band may be playing concerts for the Sailors and troops in a conflict zone. As a uniformed member of the United States Navy you will be subject to the same Navy regulations and requirements as every other Sailor.

[tubatooter1940]

The Marine Corps demands we be Marines first and our M.O.S. second.
In Vietnam, bandsmen served as stretcher bearers or riflemen or anywhere we could be of help.

[Mark]

There's more than just going to boot camp to being a real marine. It is a well known fact amongst military musicians that most of the Marines in the Presidents Own aren't real Marines. They're not required to do qualifications in rifle, gas chamber, and are non-deployable. If you ask any Marine Musician in the fleet if ALL of the members of the presidents own are real Marines, the answer will be no. We don't hold it against them, in fact we envy them because they don't have to put up with all the day to day bullshit of being in the fleet military.


If you look at the Marine Corps Rank insignia. There are crossed rifles, that designates some one that gone through recruit training and mct, and is a Marine. If you look at the rank insignia of the members of the Presidents Own. You will see that they have a musical lyre instead of the crossed rifle. That purposefully distinguishs them from the Marines that have earned the right to wear the crossed rifles.


Infact I'd be willing to bet most of them haven't even touched a rifle. I'm not trying to put them down for what they're doing they provide their country and troops a great benefit, but as for being considered a real marine the majority simply aren't.

If you are in fact a "real Marine", you may have the right to question the band members' status. If you are not a Marine, I'd be careful about questioning the band's status to a "real Marine".

[RyanSchultz]

Also, your recruiter will lie through his teeth to you to get you to sign up. He will tell you whatever you want to hear. You are doing the right thing by seeking info on this board. Better yet would be to actually talk to at least a couple of people who have enlisted in the military to be in the band program. They are more likely to give you an honest representation of what it is like.

My recruiter was a pretty good guy. However, due to a duffuss at the Milwaukee MEPS I went from having my station of choice: South Carolina to the rainforests of Western Washington. It worked out alright but it sure got me fired up at the time.

If you don't have it specifically in writing, forget about it!

[RyanSchultz]

Being deployed somewhere isnt a big deal as long as im playing my tuba, not fighting, thats what i want to know

Absolutely forget about regular Army and Marine Bands. Maybe Navy--why not go to college and audition for Air Force and premier bands?

It is highly probable as a Soldier or Marine that you will be deployed to do more than play tuba.

[RyanSchultz]

Serving in Iraq is an honor, one which I would gladly have again as soon as this hip heels. Additionally, I would gladly take SSG Chisham with me. Most of those skills from BCT probably haven't faded too much.

HOOAH

Thank you