John Fletcher Holton 345 Challenge

joshwirt · Post by **joshwirt** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:13 pm

As far as I know, Fletcher only used his Besson EEb with the PJBE. The Holton CC was again, as far as I know, only used on larger works with the LSO. He, like so many of the British tubists, use the EEb as their sole instrument due to its great versatility.

-Josh

Alex C · Post by **Alex C** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 4:43 pm

joshwirt wrote:As far as I know, Fletcher only used his Besson EEb with the PJBE.

Few, if any people in the US know what Fletcher was using in the early 70's. Surely someone in GB can find out. C'mon you Brits, get cracking!

It would have been an early 70's recording session.

Richard Murrow · Post by **Richard Murrow** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 5:32 pm

The Greatest Hits cd cover was also the cover for a 33 1/3 album which was released in the early 70's. I first meet John Fletcher in 1980 in Dallas and asked him the very question you pose here, to which he replied: "I NEVER have used the CC tuba for any of the PJBE recordings or live performances". I think this is about as definitive an answer as we can get. I too thought that the sound was so big that it MUST be the Holton. If you heard John live though you would quickly understand how the EEb in his hands could sound like the Holton or a small F or ANYTHING else he wanted it to sound like. He was truly one of the greatest artists ever, not just compared to other tubists, one of the greatest artists ever, period! A genius!

MartyNeilan · Post by **MartyNeilan** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 6:38 pm

Tony E wrote:Does it raise any ethical questions when an artist poses for an album cover showing an instrument, which is in fact not the instrument used on the recording, knowing that the manufacturer intends to create a false impression (presumably for a fee)?

I dunno, does it??

Richard Murrow · Post by **Richard Murrow** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 6:45 pm

Tony, Tony, Tony! I can only tell you what J.F. told me! It is possible that the photo was not taken on the same day that the recording was done. As to whether or not it was a promotional gimmick, I doubt it. I don't believe that he endorsed Holton tubas. A side note is that he also told me that he got his first Holton on a trip to N.Y. in a pawn shop for $500! Hardly an endorsement horn! My impression always was that John really didn't like to play the CC tuba that much, but did it because of pressures from conductors who were guest conducting American orchestras and being influenced by American orchestral tubists who were beginning to play larger horns.

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:52 pm

I am going to second what Richard has already said, that Fletcher never used the Holton tubas in the PJBE. I base this on a conversation I had with him in 1984 at the International Brass Conference held at Indiana University. We had just finished judging the mock orchestra tuba audition and John, myself, Ron Bishop, and Fritz Kaenzig all went to a bar within walking distance of the music building. Over lunch I specifically asked if he had used the Holton for the recording of the Stephen Dodgson Septet. (If you know this recording you also know that it features the tuba in a very resonant, well written part.) He said he never used anything but the EEb in any of the PJBE recordings or performances.

Mike Sanders

MartyNeilan · Post by **MartyNeilan** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:19 pm

Mike wrote: John, myself, Ron Bishop, and Fritz Kaenzig all went to a bar ....

Somehow, I find myself waiting for a punch line involving a Rabbi or a talking animal.

MikeMason · Post by **MikeMason** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:33 pm

maybe they just simply thought the holton was more photogenic.More visual impact...

fsgazda · Post by **fsgazda** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:10 am

From what I understand, and this is somwhere between third and 100th hand information, the photographers asked for the most impressive looking instrument he had for the shoot.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:47 pm

harold wrote:Didn't Holton use Jake in several of their ads? How much of his work was performed using the Holton?

Nope. Never happened. Pure myth.

Rick "recalling (seriously) that Jacobs used the Holton as a backup to the Yorks when not specifically on an endorsement mission" Denney

brianf · Post by **brianf** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:05 pm

In the early 50's the Chicago Sy,phony Brass Quintet was formed and they did some touring during the symphony's off season (remember it was a 44 week season back then). After a few years, they began an association with Holton. The requirements were that they played Holton instruments. Here's were the 345 was developed and Mr Jacobs played it in the quintet. I am not sure how much it was used with the symphony but he did keep a Holton B flat at Orchestra Hall (later sold to Keating Johnson). Maybe someone else (like Bob Rusk) can fill in the holes here.

happyroman · Post by **happyroman** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:28 pm

When the PBJE performed at Northwestern (late 70s or early 80s), the only instrument Mr. Fletcher used was the EEb.

I believe that he had stated that the photo with the Holton was taken just before or after an LSO rehearsal or recording session. It was the only tuba he had with him, so it was used in the photo.

He also apparently used a Rudy 5/4 CC in the orchestra, FWIW.

Pete Link · Post by **Pete Link** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:02 pm

happyroman wrote:
He also apparently used a Rudy 5/4 CC in the orchestra, FWIW.

This is very true. I have a DVD with LSO/Bernstein doing Mahler 2. Now the funny thing is if I remember correctly was that at one point he is clearly playing a Rudy(rotor) but later it is a Holton(piston). Not sure why but maybe the video was pieced together over acouple performances. At any rate he sounds great! I am a for certain fan of alot of his orchestra work. The Proko 5 is fantastic as well as the Rach Sym 2. He found the mic nicely.

Pete

Adam C. · Post by **Adam C.** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:40 am

Pavane, John Bull, Music from the Courts of Europe album.

Evidence for the 6/4? Or just raw talent and fortuitous mic placement?

TexTuba · Post by **TexTuba** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:37 am

Adam C. wrote:Pavane, John Bull, Music from the Courts of Europe album.

Evidence for the 6/4? Or just raw talent and fortuitous mic placement?

I would guess the second!

Ralph

TexTuba · Post by **TexTuba** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:18 pm

Doc wrote:Mic placement is important, Ralph. How did yours go last night?

Doc

Oh I agree, Doc. I was saying that it was TONS of talent and mic placement. If there was a misunderstanding, whoops!

Last night was just fine, thank you.

Ralph

Billy M. · Post by **Billy M.** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:22 pm

Tony E wrote:
On the topic of PJBE album covers, what rotary valve tuba is in the balloon basket on the cover of "The Lighter Side". Is that a big 'ol dent in the bell throat? Was that horn ever used by Fletch in the PJBE?

Tony

Just a picture with a collage of brass instruments. You'll notice that there is a flugel and F horn in there that are disproportionately big compared to the other horns. As for what the horn looks like. I would say it looks like a Meinl-Weston 25, but I could be wrong.