When to stop doubling letters

[Quicksilvertuba]

I have been compiling an exercise book over the years to put together most of the exercises I have received from teachers, clinics, internet, etc...

One of the exercises is a Vincent C. type study. I expanded the range so that the first exercises in centered around the note BBflat (pedal) and the last one centers around the note F right below the bass clef staff.

My question is, as I go up the exercise chromatically, when do I stop assigning double notes (ex. EE, FF, etc...) and is there a universal notation for each note on the staff? I've seen texts say "Lowest note=B1" or "highest note=f".

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

[Chuck(G)]

C is the breakover point, at least as far as organ terminology goes. So, BBb is correct, as it refers to Bb1, but CC is the C below BBb. Eb and F tubas would be properly named by this convention; being Eb2 and F2.

But a CC tuba properly should be a subcontrabass instrument, sounding its low open note as the C just below the D 5 ledger lines below the bass staff.

Tuba naming isn't particularly logical, especially when EEb is used to refer to a bass tuba.

http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory1.htm

[Hank74]

So the two horns that I own listed below are contrabass tubas? Cool.

[Quicksilvertuba]

So, according to this chart CCC (=16.352 Hz) would be one octave below the piano's double pedal CC and BBBB would be one half step below CCC.

Pretty different from how I learned it, but this way makes more sense.

[Chuck(G)]

So the two horns that I own listed below are contrabass tubas? Cool.

Yup. Eb and F tubas are usually called "bass tubas".

[iiipopes]

When to stop using double letters? When you finally sober up, of course

[drow2buh]

I was going to say that there are indeed two different conventional labeling systems for notes, but that chart pretty much sums it up there alright. I've seen some variations, but that version looks aight.

[iiipopes]

It can get even more confusing with old English music, especially keyboard music, as since before @1840 organs had G as their common low note instead of C, then the octaves were labeled G to G, not C to C.

[Chuck(G)]

It can get even more confusing with old English music, especially keyboard music, as since before @1840 organs had G as their common low note instead of C, then the octaves were labeled G to G, not C to C.

Hence, "gamut".

[tubeast]

Quicksilvertuba´s chart shows us that the octaves are counted from the Cs on upward and are named after their LOWEST C.
Do you realise the consequences ? Our nomenclature is logically inconsequent:

F-tubas and Eb-tubas are bass tubas (first partials are in the BASS octave),
CC-tubas are Contrabass tubas (First partial is Contra-C)
But here it comes:
Following logic,
Euphoniums are BBb tubas (First partial BBb is in the same octave as Eb- and F- tubas´)
BBb tubas actually are BBBb tubas and should be named "Sub-Contrabass Tuba", because their first partial is the Bb of the sub-contrabass octave.

Cool, huh ?
So, what are we going to do about it ? Time to write letters to the Encyclopedia-guys ?

[Chuck(G)]

Cool, huh ?
So, what are we going to do about it ? Time to write letters to the Encyclopedia-guys ?

If you're counting "pedals" as the lowest note, be advised that pedals aren't part of the harmonic series of the tuba. The true fundamental of a BBb tuba is something like the D nine ledger lines below the staff--but it doesn't coincide with a resonance, so it's not really playable.

The lowest "true" usable open note on a BBb tuba is---BBb. And by the chart, the lowest "true" usable open note on a CC tuba is--C.

[tubeast]

Chuck,

could you elaborate on that for me, please ?

My train of thought, concerning the nomenclatura of tubas, went like this:

-Name of Tuba corresponds to low range of typical specimen.
-typical specimen of tuba = good tuba = instrument most likely to be chosen by professional musician
-low range of good tuba = lowest "good" notes such tuba has
-good note = a note professional would use with confidence and in a way that enhances his/her good reputation as a musician = at least about a quart or fifth below the fundamental (or beyond, depending on both the player and the instrument
-prefix of tuba name = Lowest good note without using valves = fundamental of instrument.

Most tubas chosen by professionals as their main axe will provide opportunities to reach the fundamental chromatically.

This corresponds to a CC-tuba being called a CC-tuba: on a reasonably well built CC-tuba, the lowest open (valveless) note will be CC as depicted in the chart above. BBb is the Bb ABOVE that CC. Now, what we usually call a BBb tuba has its fundamental at BBBb, one note below CC, belonging to the sub-contra octave.

If I´m wrong, CC-tubas should be called C-tubas instead, because the name-giving note would be an octave above the fundamental.
I DID make mistakes in my original post, though:
F- and Eb-tubas DO have their fundamentals in the contra-octave and could, following logic, be called contrabass-tubas as well as the CC-tuba.

No matter how you want to define it, though: C- and BBb-tubas (according to your nomenclatura) have their fundamentals in different octaves, while C-, Eb,- and F-tubas as well as Bb-euphoniums have their fundamentals in the SAME octave.

[Chuck(G)]

Hi Hans,

Take a look at the following link (observe that it's for a trumpet, but the acoustics still apply to conical brass):

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/brassac ... html#pedal

Because the pedal is neither a true resonance nor does it represent the true fundamental frequency of an instrument, I think we have to name our instruments by the second harmonic (2f) note. It's certainly the one I use when calculating slide lengths, etc.

Thus, a BBb tuba is indeed a BBb tuba, but the CC is, by the chart, a C tuba.

[Steve Inman]

SSttoopp ddoouubblliinngg lleetteerrss wwhheenn ccaarrppaall ttuunnnneell ssyynnddrroommee bbeeccoommeess aa pprroobblleemm..

Cheers (ouch),

[iiipopes]

Yes, "technically," the modern orchestral tuba should be called a C tuba instead of a CC tuba. But as convention developed, with the CC and the BBb both being considered "contrabass" tubas, and with the word contrabass usually being associated with doubling up of the letters, CC it has become, not only for that reason, but to differentiate it from the French C tuba, which, of course, was almost single-handedly put out to pasture by Mel Culbertson combined with the trenchant xenophobia of the French tubists of the day.

[Chuck(G)]

Yes, "technically," the modern orchestral tuba should be called a C tuba instead of a CC tuba. But as convention developed, with the CC and the BBb both being considered "contrabass" tubas, and with the word contrabass usually being associated with doubling up of the letters, CC it has become, not only for that reason, but to differentiate it from the French C tuba, which, of course, was almost single-handedly put out to pasture by Mel Culbertson combined with the trenchant xenophobia of the French tubists of the day.

And of course, Boosey's EEb tuba--but I've never heard of an FF bass tuba...

[Rick Denney]

For describing pitches, I would use the modern octave designations, which are either numbered or use the little symbols--I forget which. Time to go back and read Read.

For describing tubas, I would use the terms "contrabass" and "bass". If a pitch is needed, I usually just use a single letter, such as "Bb contrabass tuba". If you use "BBb" and "CC", explain on first use that these are the traditional designations and leave it at that. E.G.: "The traditionally named BBb and CC tubas are contrabass tubas pitched in..."

Rick "clarity is more important than orthodoxy" Denney

[Steve Inman]

"For describing tubas, I would use the terms "contrabass" and 'bass'."

Or, you could call them:

First bass -- the F tuba, as it came first
Second bass -- whichever was created next
Third bass --- etc
Home plate -- the last one on the scene!

You only score a home run when you own one of each.

[Kevin Hendrick]

... you could call them:

First bass -- the F tuba, as it came first
Second bass -- whichever was created next
Third bass --- etc
Home plate -- the last one on the scene!

You only score a home run when you own one of each.

I'm assuming "shortstop" would be either a French tuba or euph ...

[Chuck(G)]

Alternative designations don't work. I once spoke about a "Bb contrabass tuba" tuba to band director friend and he looked at me sort of strangely and said "is that the same as a double-be-flat tuba"?

Sigh. Heaven knows what he would have made of "Eb bombardon".

Jonathan, on most of my brass band parts, I see "Bb bass" and "Eb bass" marked. I'm sure what's intended is full-sized instruments, no?

Our nomenclature is so screwed up.