What happened to humility?

[windshieldbug]

Because every once in 2,578,485,875 times, it actually happens...

[tubatooter1940]

Confidence is a big part of tight music-a real asset. However I understand when youngsters sound like they're bragging. If you don't toot your own horn, then who will?
Competition for the all-too-few paying gigs will settle who can cut it as a musician and who needs to sell a little insurance or flip burgers to keep the wolves away from the door.

[Rick Denney]

Whatever happened to paying your dues until you had a solid set of skills and had something of substance to offer the ensemble?

Carol Jantsch, that's what happened. They think if she can pay all the necessary dues by age 20, they can, too. And they can, if they are good enough. Carol isn't the first by any means.

But I think reality will set in sooner rather than later. Audition committees can do their own enforcement of humility with no help from me.

Rick "who thinks musicians, like bicycle racers, are rarely rewarded for humility" Denney

[Rick Denney]

Because every once in 2,578,485,875 times, it actually happens...

It's a lot more often than that. It seems like maybe one in every few hundred successful auditionees are college age or younger.

Rick "thinking humility is an acquired trait often learned the hard way" Denney

[windshieldbug]

Because every once in 2,578,485,875 times, it actually happens...

It's a lot more often than that. It seems like maybe one in every few hundred successful auditionees are college age or younger.

Rick "thinking humility is an acquired trait often learned the hard way" Denney

audition with a major symphony

I was thinking more of a Carol Jantsch or LeBron James...

[WoodSheddin]

Whatever happened to paying your dues until you had a solid set of skills and had something of substance to offer the ensemble?

Your fundemental argument is flawed and indicates a generational divide. Being old and "paying your dues" does not necessarily develop a "solid set of skills". This is reinforced year after year after year after year as more and more grad schools accept doctoral students who have never won a job. There are also hundreds of town bands which contain former performance majors who "payed their dues" and have many years of "experience" but neverless never reached the dream.

Don't be bitter. There are a good number of examples of younger musicians who attain enviable positions. Let the guy go to the New York Phil audition and perhaps play his one excerpt like hundreds or even thousands before him have and then go back to his hotel room and fly back home tommorrow. Or perhaps he will even play a few more than some here expected.

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

Whatever happened to paying your dues

We are in an age of instant gratification (sigh), its what they grew up with. I see it in my trade all the time. The "Newbes" wants to be the custom brass repair tech and only want to do pro horns and have the glory and be the "Big-Shot" in the shop but few are willing to pay the dues. I was already training to enter the trade when I was 16 but still, I knew there was a lot I did not know simply by looking around. I sure wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed but I had common sense. Let them chase there dream, maybe it will pay off. Ether way, reality will eventually rear its ugly head and most probably crush there dreams like a bug. Then and only then will they be one of us. (sinister laugh!)


Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
www.oberloh.com

[TubaRay]

"Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way."

[windshieldbug]

"The island of misfit fiddlers"

[Mitch]

Why are there very few opera singers under the age of 30?

This one's a little different. Speaking as a tubist who's studied voice (with some major teachers) and performed a lot as a vocalist, there's a saying in the opera singing world: "You sing before 30 or after 30, not both."

The voice doesn't really mature, if treated and trained "properly," until the mid-20's (at the earliest), and depending on the voice (i.e. coloratura soprano, heldentenor, etc.) well into the 30's. The voice "settles in," and in some ways it's almost necessary to relearn how to sing with "that" voice. An acquaintance of an acquaintance took a lot of time off to have kids. She didn't start singing seriously again until around the age of 40. She's now a well known Wagnerian soprano, and she said it's like it was just there (she was more of a lighter lyric soprano during all her training).

Tha damage done to a lot of young singers is that they complete a DMA by 26 or so and have worked their voice to the bone. Often times, their voice isn't the same as when they started, but continually trying to force it to be somthing it's not results in ending their careers before they have a chance to start. I saw a promising young bass push too hard during graduate work and by the time he finished the DMA he had nothing. He wasn't 50% of what he was before he started. I've seen women who say they're sopranos but are mezzos at best, although they probably were sopranos when they were 18. They're just not anymore.

The tuba is not going to change. If someone really busts their chops, they'll get somewhere. I saw Tony Kniffen go from having a tuba to "have a better low range on euphonium" to really liking it and practicing on it hours and hours a day (when he was there on a euphonium scholarship, I believe) to being a CSO finalist at 19. If you've got the drive and the skill, I think age doesn't make as much a difference.

It's the maturity, which has a certain independence from age. I've seen some awsome young musicians nobody wanted to work with because they were #&*holes. If someone has the chops and the ability to sit in an orchestra and contribute as a mature individual, I'd hire them if they were 16.

[tofu]

How come orchestras don't work like professional sports in which there are farm teams and not every player gets to be in the playoffs?

Major orchestras have a hard enough time putting enough butts in the seats to stay afloat. Who is going to pay & come to see/hear these farm team orchestras? In Chicago there is the Civic Orchestra which was/is kind of like a farm team for the CSO. They have had a very hard time hanging in there and have made large cuts in personnel. When I had friends in the Civic it was great because so few people came to concerts that they could get me freebies in the box seats in Orchestra Hall.

And when you think about it the college/universities are really a farm team system for the orchestras and they don't have to pay for it. When was the last time you saw an auditon for any seat in a major orchestra that there were not a large number of quality auditionees?

[iiipopes]

Part of the problem is the definition of humility. It is not lack of humility that drives everyone to try out for the one position open. That is simply good old American giving it your best shot. It is not automatically declining to audition because you think you're not good enough. That's lack of self esteem. True humility is after you don't get the gig, congratulating the person who did, and going back home to practice some more until the next opening comes along without complaining, while still having self esteem about what you can do for the ensembles you do play in. Or if you did get the gig, simplying saying thank you in the proper context then waking up the next morning to work your backside off to keep the job and get along with your ensemble collegues without bragging about it.

[DBCooper]

What happened to humility?

I think Ravel rearranged it. (Modest Mussorgsky)

[MaryAnn]

As to where all the young geniuses go (or even the young very talenteds..) many of the fiddle players end up playing in sections in orchestras. I remember a violinist who was in high school the same time I was; he wasn't in the all-city orchestra and didn't partake in the available musical activities, because he was practicing four hours a day. He is now a section violinist, has been for a long time. I guess he's happy there. But others....as they mature, maybe they find out that they don't want to be what they prepared for, what they put in gazillions of hours practicing for; maybe they even made it into that coveted orchestral position, played a decade or two, and said, "Huh. Gee, this isn't really fun any more. I wonder what else is out there I could do?" And then they go do it. Another friend of mine, who graduated as a violin major from IU...played a bit, then went back to school and got her MSW. Even though she had the talent, the ambition, and the work ethic to be what she wanted to be....she changed her mind and went and did something else entirely.

MA

[Mark E. Chachich]

Soap Box Alert!

When I was young(er) I auditioned for orchestras great and small. It was not a lack of humility, but I knew that I had a lot to learn and that I needed the experience. I realized that without auditioning you do not get an orchestra job. I approached every autition with the attitude that I will win (if you do not why did you go?).

I learned a lot by auditioning when I was young. I found out that I was in fact a good musician. However, I noticed that better musicians were winning the jobs. I also I learned that I better find something else to do for my major source of income. I have often said that I was such a good musician that I am a scientist now.

All I can say is work very hard, put your tape together and try. If it works out congrats! If you do not win the big audition you are still a musician for life and have one of the best hobbies you can imagine (my experience). Furthermore, you can meet some real interesting and nice people through music anywhere you go in the world (as I have).

best,
Mark

[Tubadork]

Good thing you should tell all the folks who haven't paid their dues to not audition like:
Carol Jantsch
Sumer Erickson
Floyd Cooley

NOT NEW, Floyd and Sumner both got jobs right out of school and that was more than 20 years ago!!!!!!
Bill

[ZNC Dandy]

Walter Hilgers won the Vienna Philharmonic audition in 1980 before he was 21. The tubist that premiered "The Ring" was 16. I don't think age has anything to do with it. Who cares how long someone went to school, or where they went to school. If a conductor is after a certain sound, who is emitting it should have no bearing on the issue. Thats why screens exist. I personally don't see the point of taking auditions for the "experience". If you're not going to try to win, don't bother. But thats just my opinion.

[sandiegotuba]

I don't think the fact that she's a woman that plays tuba had anything to do with the fact that she got the philly job. She's a good quality player, and she got the job.

From an article on tuba news:
"Following are some of Carol’s achievements: She appeared on the National Public Radio show “From The Topâ€

[Tubaryan12]

If there are better, my opinion is that she has more room to grow than people who are 10-15 years older, and are reaching the apex of their careers, while she has just begun.

Just like in pro sports today...she has more "upside". We can name dozens of folks in pro sports who haven't paid their dues. Society today rewards the up and comming more than it does the established player. This is not the fault of the young, and is not the fault of the young for taking advantage of a system that older generations created. Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

[windshieldbug]

Is there even a remote possibility that gender played a role in the Phily audition in order to get some substantial airplay and perhaps fill up the seats? How much press time has been spent on the fact that she is a woman that happens to play tuba?

No possibility at all?

First of all, "possibility" is a very inclusive term. How about 'realistic possibility'... this person was recomended by a sitting player in the orchestra, who knew that if successful, he would be playing beside her for who knows how long... and from EVERY measure is a well-qualified, bright, musical, intelligent player, who has made more opportunity for themselves than any other person embarking on such a career... in short, exactly the KIND OF PERSON you are looking for in such a search. Would you have rejected such a person in the job search you mention?