Quintet horn?

[windshieldbug]

Do you any of you guys use something different in a quintet?
Euphonium, American baritone, cimbasso,...?

Only as an exception, and when specifically called for.

[iiipopes]

Hmm, in reviewing this thread, it's ironic to me that this thread started out with quinterborne being "assaulted" about using a CC, when the poll shows that's what the majority use! (I know, very small sample, but still ironic)

[SplatterTone]

Hmm, in reviewing this thread, it's ironic to me that this thread started out with quinterborne being "assaulted"

Since my reply was the first, and I went with B-flat, I hope people don't think I was dissing C in any way. What I meant to say -- in a round about way (maybe too round about) -- is that what matters is how the horn is played rather the pitch level of the horn. The assumption being that if a B-flat horn works fine, then so should just about anything else.

I should add that the tubist in the Christmas quintet to which I referred was playing his B-flat tuba lightly with a 25 mouthpiece.

[quinterbourne]

I just wanted to note that I was assaulted by those not on this board (and obviously not on the board, or via the board) and that "assaulted" was an exaggeration, and probably a poor choice of wording.

I am quite satisfied with the result of this poll, but I would appreciate if I knew of more "big names" that use CCs in quintet so I may use that as a defense next time I am "assaulted." At the time all I could really think of were Chuck and a couple local pros the "assaulter" did not know of.

Mark Wiseman did make note of the Empire Brass (Kenneth Amis?), the American Brass Quintet (don't they use bass trombone) and the Canadian Brass (Chuck). Any others? Not just famous quintets, but what do famous (orchestral/solo) players use when they play in quintet.

Also, the poll question is stated "What key horn do you use in brass quintet?" and not "What key horn would you prefer to use in brass quintet?" I believe that the two different questions would give different results, as certain individuals may not be able to afford multiple horns, they use the horn they got and not the one they would prefer.

And I do acknowledge that the key does not necessarily dictate the kind of sound you put out, and that certain quintets want different sounds from the tuba. I just think it's unfair for anyone to be looked down upon by what key horn they play on.

BTW, I also use CC (and so does my teacher) for bass tuba rep, such as Berlioz. I have also run into problems with people giving me grief over that. I guess certain people are just so satisfied and confident with their decisions (in regards to equipment) that others who do not follow their philosophies are dummies, which I take offense to. Sorry about this rant.

[Steve Inman]

Just a quick follow-up. Over the years, I've used the following with my quintet, with comments noted:

Miraphone 186 BBb -- precise attacks in the upper register (above F in the staff) a bit of a challenge for me.

Various Eb tubas, culminating with a Besson 983 -- good choice for quintet if you can get comfortable with the extra resistance of the compensating low register.

Small Amati / Cerveny F (older version of the 654-6V) -- difficult low C, upper register intonation quirks

Yamaha 621F -- Eb one ledger line below the staff was quite flat (almost 2 inch slide push -- only obvious intonation quirk), quintet thought it was too small

Miraphone 186 CC -- pretty good choice -- older model, 16.5" bell (4V only)

Conn 56J -- a little broad in sound for my ears. Roger Lewis suggested I try my Schilke 69C4 with it, which does brighten it up a bit and adds a little edge and color. Reasonably nimble horn for me, and the quintet likes a bigger tuba sound. Switched from this to Eb last winter after Lee Stofer changed the 5th valve from flat half step to flat whole step.

Currently using a Yamaha Eb (381 5V) with the large Helleberg mpc (quintet did not like the 69C4 with the Yamaha). Nice blend, sound-wise. Also a good choice.

Steve concludes -- anything you can play well can work well. The bigger contrabass tubas do add a noticeable foundational bass voice, where the bass tubas tend to blend better. Exceptions (both ways) are probably the Miraphone 184 CC, Willson Eb, Yamaha 822.

Cheers,

[tubatooter1940]

This is America and we all have the right to snicker about and discriminate against anybody who does anything different than we do.
I have my reasons for equipment owned and would never say anything to your face about your choices but my wife and buddies will get an earfull.
I just ask that you pour 110% effort into whatever you have and you will see me stay until the end of your performance and maybe even send the band a round.

[Gravid]

FWIW, I've had the privilege of hearing a couple of very fine university (faculty) quintets recently. Both tubists used very different equipment, yet both sounded great. Mike Dunn (Univ of CO) went back and forth between a large (5/4-ish?) Kurath CC and B&S PT-10P F, basing his choice on the nature/style of each particular piece (he definitely gets the award for "service before self," when it comes to schlepping equipment). Ben Pierce (Univ of AR), on the other hand, played everything on a MW 45-SLP F. Again, both musicians sounded very good, both individually and w/in the collective sound of his respective quintet. Evidence, IMO, for the notion that there's more than one way to skin this cat (quintet issue), as long as the concept is firmly supported by time spent in the ol' practice room.

Personally, I use a B&S Symphonie model (small bore) F in our faculty quintet at Baylor. Sure, there are times when I'd like to be able to push the low register a bit more w/out having the pitch go # or the tone lose some core, but more often than not, my problems can be attributed to user error. Consumed by my own personal search for the perfect quintet horn (conclusion: it doesn't exist), I spent the better part of 3 years field-testing a vintage Mir 186 CC, Holton Harvey Phillips CC, Kanstul 3/4 CC, and a MW 45 SLP. Although my colleagues (usually the trombonist) would occasionally hint that they preferred the sound of a CC, I believe they were really saying, "I prefer the way you are more confident w/the pitch on the CC." While I admit that it's probably easier for them to latch onto the timbre of a contrabass tuba (due to the presence of more fundamental in the overall tonal spectrum), I've taken the approach that the pitch/low register response issues are simply my fault. For me personally, having to spend time exercising my low register F chops on 1 tune is worth what I gain in agility and tone color for the other 4-5 tunes on the program.

PS
Mike Dunn is my hero, even if he did use the same mouthpiece on both horns

[windshieldbug]

Miraphone 184 CC = ultimate quintet horn. Too small for much more, but can sound like anything you need it to.

[MikeMason]

I'm about to try using a jupiter 482.Don't laugh...I'll let you know.Pretty suprising little horn i found it the attic of our store.4 stainless steel piston BBb and it's a player.I like the idea of only having to keep up with 2 sets of fingerings,since my big horn is a BBb also.

[W]

I believe any of the suggestions mentioned so far have been sufficient: small BBb, CC, medium-big Eb, big F.

One of the best quintets I've heard, Center City Brass Quintet uses a CC as well. Listent to any of their records. I was especially blown away by the Bozza. Craig Knox got some of the most crispieset notes I've ever heard on a CC.


ALso just consider, would you play string bass in a string quartet instead of a cello? No, so don't use one of them 5/4 or 6/4 tubas in a quintet either.

[iiipopes]

How about a Rudy 4345?

[tubeast]

Years ago I exclusively used F in quintet. Period.
Now I´d probably bring both F and CC, and for the SAME reason: ´cause that´s what I got. (Why should I restrict myself if everybody else is joining the arms race ?)

I like the way it´s easier for me to alter sound as fits the style of the piece with the small horn. The big one would serve well on those transcriptions of organ pieces.
I´d be more proud of my capabilities if I found myself bringing only one horn ALTHOUGH i got more horns to show off.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

....ALso just consider, would you play string bass in a string quartet instead of a cello? No, so don't use one of them 5/4 or 6/4 tubas in a quintet either.

While I don't disagree with your conclusion, I question your analogy:

.................cello --------------> string bass
................................. =
3/4-4/4 tuba --------------> 5/4-6/4 tuba

The size thing may be analogous, but a string bass sounds one octave lower than the cello, making it a totally inappropriate choice as a cello substitute in a string quartet.

[Lew]

I'm about to try using a jupiter 482.Don't laugh...I'll let you know.Pretty suprising little horn i found it the attic of our store.4 stainless steel piston BBb and it's a player.I like the idea of only having to keep up with 2 sets of fingerings,since my big horn is a BBb also.

I play in a band with someone who recently bought one of these. He is a former band director and plays different instruments in different groups, primarily clarinet. This is his only tuba. I was surprised at the sound and playability of this horn. I think that it would be a great choice for a small BBb tuba, especially for the price.

[ASTuba]

I believe any of the suggestions mentioned so far have been sufficient: small BBb, CC, medium-big Eb, big F.

One of the best quintets I've heard, Center City Brass Quintet uses a CC as well. Listent to any of their records. I was especially blown away by the Bozza. Craig Knox got some of the most crispieset notes I've ever heard on a CC.


ALso just consider, would you play string bass in a string quartet instead of a cello? No, so don't use one of them 5/4 or 6/4 tubas in a quintet either.

Early Center City Recordings were done on a PT-6, a large 5/4 tuba... Dismisses this post completely.

Just play what you got, F, CC, Eb, BBb, it doesn't matter, as long as it sounds good, and the quintet feels the same way.

[Wyvern]

....ALso just consider, would you play string bass in a string quartet instead of a cello? No, so don't use one of them 5/4 or 6/4 tubas in a quintet either.

While I don't disagree with your conclusion, I question your analogy:

.................cello --------------> string bass
................................. =
3/4-4/4 tuba --------------> 5/4-6/4 tuba

The size thing may be analogous, but a string bass sounds one octave lower than the cello, making it a totally inappropriate choice as a cello substitute in a string quartet.

Really a string bass substituting for a cello is like a BBb tuba substituting for a euphonium considering the octave difference.

[W]

Did you all know that a string bass can play in unison, same concert pitch as the cello? Wow, never would've thought of that. And when it does it sounds more "tubby", hence my point. The smaller, more compact horn is more appropriate in a chamber situation. Doesn't mean Warren Deck didn't play well with his MW2165 at his brass quintet concert, it just wasn't the most ideal instrument in a chamber setting.

Also, the bass is not an octave lower than the cello. It's down a minor 6th (unless you're talking about the one with extention or 5 strings). And the m6 is closer to the difference between a BBb and F tuba (a perfect 5th), rather than a BBb tuba and a euphonium. Besides, that analogy was more about the quality of sound, not the range. Get the net, tuba player.


@Andy, PT-6? If you go on their website, you'll see it's not what you thought. It's either the PT-3 or an older PT-4. Unless he used a PT-6 in the recording & used the PT-3 or PT-4 in his pictures. ANd I'm pretty sure he used the Cerveny "piggy" model on their "Quintets" album. Go check it.

[Richard Murrow]

While a survey of this type is interesting, I think it can be somewhat misleading. My guess is that the majority of those who have responded and the majority of members on this list are from the U.S.. That would likely cause the results to lean more toward CC & F tubas. I realize that there are some U.S. players who would use a BBb or EEb tuba, but the majority of serious players and those playing chamber music in the U.S. are CC or F players. What would the results be if this were asked of British, German, or French players for example. I think we would then see completely different results. My guess is that we would see a much larger percentage of F and EEb tubas. I know that there are some European players on the list, but the majority of players here are still from the U.S..

I have used BBb, CC, F and EEb tubas of all different sizes and configurations at different times in quintets and I have say that I understand the loyalty of our British friends to the EEb tuba. It is capable of weight when needed, lightness when called upon, clarity of articulation, and great flexibility and the low register is much more user friendly than the F tuba. Any tuba can work if the player is a good musician, but I find that after over 35 years of brass quintet playing the EEb makes my quintet life much easier.

[Chuck(G)]

Also, the bass is not an octave lower than the cello. It's down a minor 6th (unless you're talking about the one with extention or 5 strings).

Well yes, but in defense of those who made the original statement, the bass is very commonly used to sound the same note as the 'celli, but an octave down. I've lost count of the number of parts I've gotten that are labeled "Violoncello and Bass".

But the differences between string instruments are more than just the tuning. Violas and basses are not built to the same scale that violins and 'celli are. They have to be constructed to a smaller scale to be playable by humans.

[Tom Holtz]

@Andy, PT-6? If you go on their website, you'll see it's not what you thought. It's either the PT-3 or an older PT-4. Unless he used a PT-6 in the recording & used the PT-3 or PT-4 in his pictures.

From the CCBQ website:

Craig is a Conn-Selmer Artist, and performs on the Conn 52-J tuba in the Center City Brass Quintet.

Those audio clips are bad to the bone. Nothing small or compact going on with that.