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Donn
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Post by Donn »

TubaTinker wrote:With the Dixie and German groups I play with, we ALWAYS start with real music. After 'getting the feel' of it, we stray off a bit and add in our own stuff.
Right, what counts is where you end up. Written notes can give you a head start. I play in another band a little like the one Jacob G mentioned, and none of us had an adequate background in Eastern European music to do without written parts (well, we don't write out drum parts.)

But it's like training wheels on a bicycle. Riding the bike the right way is a totally different thing, and training wheels don't teach you that, they just keep you from falling over early in the learning process. I don't know what the answer is, for our band. I think learning pieces note by note is probably going to continue to account for most of our repertoire for the foreseeable future, but we also need to develop the music past that point. Not necessarily adding our own extra notes (other than solo breaks), more like getting a feel that isn't adequately described by the notes.
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Post by TubaRay »

Doc wrote: Was I lucky? Sure. I played and sang by ear at home growing up, and, when I was 15, my first paying job on tuba was all by ear. I had to listen instead of read.
I wasn't so luck at such an early age. I did sing a lot, harmonizing by ear.
Doc wrote: The first band I hired on with had chord charts for about 50% of their tunes. The rest required you to listen and play appropriately. You have to listen to the changes, listen for style. You might have to listen to that kind of music outside of playing situations to grasp the music and what you need to do.

This sounds like what I have been learning to do recently. Playing entirely by ear on some tunes is a relatively new thing for me. I have now played gigs with a group in which there is NO music. If I'm lucky, they call the key before we start. This hasn't been easy for this old guy, but I'm learning.
Doc wrote: Wouldn't more comprehensive ear training help developing players? Or is it that winning contests and trophies has taken the place of a more well-rounded music education? I digress...
Don't even get me started....
Ray Grim
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tubatooter1940
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Post by tubatooter1940 »

Great rant by Doc. He refered to "Nashville Notation", chord charts by numbers so a key change could not confuse. I attended a session with some Nashville "greats" where the progression was jotted on the back of a matchbox and shown around once and then the group nailed it on the first take.
Experience helps, but lack of funds and the need to learn lots-o-tunes caused me as the leader of a low paid house (barroom) band to borrow recordings or tape off the radio to get enough material. Lyrics were jotted down, usually, with chords in red over the syllable where they hit. We took no music onstage.
This process took hours, at first, but later on I could write words, figure chords on guitar and get the jist of the arrangement in 30-45 minutes.
(Chicago's "Saturday in the Park" took me 3 one hour sessions and the band 5 rehearsals to clean up.)
We played 6 nights and rehearsed 3 afternoons a week. I kept the same 5 guys together for 5 years or more (we were all married and in debt). We had tune list of 650 tunes. It got to where if one guy knew the words, we could "wing" a new request with all instrument parts and three part vocals as soon as we agreed on what key. Some of those "wing-'ems"turned out so well, we put 'em on the list.
Of course, some sounded like car wrecks-but we would warn the crowd in advance that this could happen. :shock:
This ear playing thing gets shaky when a tune is called that the the band hasn't played for some months. With no charts, lyrics and/or the arrangement may have slipped away for some or all of us. :oops:
Dennis Gray
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Last edited by tubatooter1940 on Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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lgb&dtuba
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Post by lgb&dtuba »

I came up through 50's and 60's public school band programs and the name of the game was "see the note, play the note". No ear training of any kind. The Pavlovian training method was applied to get us kids playing enough together that the band director could keep his job and field a marching band for half time. Theory? Only enough to read the music.

Later I taught myself guitar, banjo, bass and madolin by learning the chord fingerings and just playing along with records and others. I pretty much play those types of instruments by ear and don't really need to see any music written out. For that matter, if you wrote out a C chord I probably wouldn't recognize it as such. Tell me its a I IV V7 progression and the key we're in and I'm set to go.

But to this day I cannot break the Pavlovian conditioning on the tuba and just play it. Electric bass - no problem. Tuba - just can't seem to do it. I hear the changes but it doesn't translate on that instrument.

Part of my brain knows how to do it and can. In fact I catch my attention wandering sometimes during a song and find I've been playing on autopilot for a while. Soon as I realize that and the rational side of my brain kicks in there's going to be a train wreck while I scan the music for where I'm supposed to be.

Frustrating.

Jim "where's my kibble?" Wagner
eli
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Post by eli »

lgb&dtuba wrote: ... But to this day I cannot break the Pavlovian conditioning on the tuba and just play it. Electric bass - no problem. Tuba - just can't seem to do it. I hear the changes but it doesn't translate on that instrument.

Part of my brain knows how to do it and can...
Fascinating POV. I'm primarily an electric bass player who just got a sousaphone 6 months ago, 30 years (!) after I last played for 6 months in high school. Not having been hammered hard in my (very short) tuba education, I play tuba like I play bass -- primarily from chord charts with the occasional written part. My advantage was that I learned music theory before learning to play either instrument, so I'm not stuck with the Pavlovian conditioning. Wonder if I'd have the same issues if I'd learned tuba as a musical neophyte like you did.

btw, I'm having a heck of a time making it through the "TubaChritmas" songbook... indicating my tuba reading abilities.
lgb&dtuba
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Post by lgb&dtuba »

eli wrote: ...I play tuba like I play bass -- primarily from chord charts with the occasional written part. My advantage was that I learned music theory before learning to play either instrument, so I'm not stuck with the Pavlovian conditioning. Wonder if I'd have the same issues if I'd learned tuba as a musical neophyte like you did.

btw, I'm having a heck of a time making it through the "TubaChritmas" songbook... indicating my tuba reading abilities.
Maybe if you think of it as playing lead instead of rhythm?

One of the advantages of the Pavlovian conditioning is that sight reading is pretty easy, at least on those instruments I've been conditioned on.

And thanks for the reminder about Tuba Christmas. Time to dust that music off.

Jim Wagner
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Post by tubatooter1940 »

You learn a new tune by ear and it sounds "just like the record" and then you play the thing 6 nights a week. Boredom finds us jamming the arrangement-trying to keep interest up and the groove going. A year later that tune has evolved into something sooo different- but more like us.
I don't know if that's good or bad. :?
We pronounce it Guf Coast
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