What's the difference between a Baritone and a Euphonium?

[windshieldbug]

Q: What's the difference between a duck?

A: One leg is both the same.

[Rick Denney]

Also--I'm willing to bet, that almost everyone that has told you that they played baritone actually played euphonium. I don't know of any middle schools that own authentic baritones. People just confused the two instruments for so long that they have become synonymous with one another over time here in the US.

Well, you are assuming we have a chicken and egg situation when comparing what you call authentic baritones with traditional American baritones. Really we have two different instruments that have always been different and that have served in different musical roles. There is no synonym just because they happen to use the same word. The synonym is between American-style baritone and euphonium--those are two words that refer to basically the same isntrument, absent normal variations over time. But American baritone and English baritone refer to two different instruments.

I have a Reynolds instrument made in 1938 or so. Here it is:



Baritone or Euphonium? Reynolds called it a baritone, and it was used to play music with the word "Baritone Horn" in the upper left corner. But it has a .565 bore and a 10.5" bell, which is a lot closer to a modern euphonium than any British-style baritone. This was a typical upright baritone from yesteryear. I saw pictures today of a Martin baritone from the 50's that had a bore of about .56" and an 11" bell. It was, if anything, a bit fatter than the Reynolds. Nobody would have ever called it anything but a baritone.

The person who said the British baritone is like an upright valve trombone is close to the mark. But a traditional American baritone is not like that at all. My old Reynolds certainly has a brighter sound than my Besson, but then my old Conn 48H trombone has a brighter sound than any modern symphonic-bore tenor trombone, too, at least when played by someone who knows how (which isn't me).

The British and American-style baritones were never the same instrument, they were just named using the same word by two countries that at least pretend to share a language. But their musical roles differ markedly, and I keep coming back to the musical role as providing the authoritative meaning. When the guys down in the DC bands pull up an old Lucien Caillet orchestral music arrangement out of the warhorse library, the euphonium players will see "baritone" written in the upper corner. But they will play their Willsons and Bessons. And some fellow in some community band across the country will sit in front of the very same piece of music and play it contendedly on his elderly Conn 14I baritone. If he's good enough, it will be mighty hard for anyone not a euphonium player to tell the difference.

The Yamaha instruments are named in the British tradition, which makes sense given that they borrowed heavily from British designs for many of their instruments, and given that they really would like to sell into the brass band movement. They won't sell a British baritone into the U.S. school system, because that instrument is not used in American concert band instrumentation.

Rick "whose high school band had baritones" Denney

[tubeast]

Just add to some bow-shaped line to the vicious circle we´re describing here: I´m leaning strongly towards just calling the whole thing off, either settling on ONE term or using them as synonyms of the same instrument.

If the MW 2040/5 is an Eb tuba, then what´s a Besson Sovereign Eb comper ? Must be different, at least it can´t be a tuba as well, can it ? You see, there are Alexander Tenor tubas (in Bb) and Euphoniums.
What about a Rudy Meinl 6/4 and that new Howard Johnson model 3/4 BBb M-W has released recently ? Can´t BOTH be tubas, can they ? After all, there are oval Tenorhorns and American Baritones. No way comparing those two, right ?

[Chuck(G)]

Just call 'em all "mouthpiece extenders".

[windshieldbug]

I think that it's like the "/4" concept; it's whatever the manufacturer decides to call it, for whatever reason.

In my own self-centered American way, I have just chosen to call instruments (for MYSELF) with a tuning slide loop before the valves (and thus cylindrical tubing in the mouthpipe section) baritones, and those with direct mouthpiece to valve mouthpipes euphoniums.

I realize that this does NOT take into account bore size, bell size, bore percentages, or total bell shape.

But needing a consistent, simple, visual mechanism, this works for ME, regardless what a horn is called by it's manufacturer or others...

[imperialbari]

Rick, the British baritone (originally the Saxhorn baryton en Si bemol) is not at all close to a valve trombone. It is conical for a much larger part of its bore.

Actually the older 8.25â€

[Donn]

What role did the saxhorn family play in this mess? I see a widely repeated assertion that the British baritone is a tenor saxhorn.

One can also read that the US baritone started out as a baritone saxhorn, which seems somewhat plausible,

and that Sax invented the baritone horn and/or euphonium, which does not. (I'd go with Wieprecht or Moritz on that one.) This tendency to oversimplify history in favor of Sax's branding is what makes me wonder if US players in the late 1800s were really all about saxhorns, or if it was just as complicated here as it was in Europe.

(I personally like "tenor basshorn".)

[peter birch]

what is the difference between a tuba and a euphonium?
nothing - the euphoniumists big head just makes the instrument look smaller.

if you look at the tips for playing (link at the top of thre page) you will see the euph called a tenor tuba, and the baritone horn a piccolo tuba (just to add tt the confusion)

[windshieldbug]

Why a duck?

Gottta stick with whatcha know!

[9811matt]

Or to quote one of the more popular eBay listings for a quality, chrome plated wonder...



"The baritone altohorn, has a medium bore compared to the euphonium's larger bore and it makes a much lighter and more pleasant sound, compared to a euphonium. It is also easier to master and is preferred by many to the euphonium. "

[windshieldbug]

"... and it makes a much lighter and more pleasant sound, compared to a euphonium."

Of course, euphonium means "pleseant sounding"...

[oldbandnerd]

Here's a oldy but a goody concerning that age old question :


viewtopic.php?p=61824&highlight=#61824

[Rick Denney]

Mr. Denney (can you tell I am impressed by your website), how does your Reynolds play in the low register? What shank does it have? What is the history of American baritones?

An older gentleman in my community band just recently bought a 1965(?) Conn with 4 front valves and a removeable bell. It has a medium shank, as apparently a few of these do.

The Reynolds is not a great perfomer in the low register, requiring very careful feeding of air to get any results at all. The fourth valve is long and stuffy, as expected.

The receiver and leadpipe are not original. The leadpipe wraps around to far and has a typical "baritone" mouthpiece receiver that takes a tenor trombone mouthpiece. I don't like the mouthpiece choices for that instrument. I should try a Denis Wick 4AY, which was made for the Yamaha 321, to see how it goes.

My Besson pre-Sovereign compensator has a larger-bore fourth valve and compensation circuit, and plays much better in the low register. I use a much larger Steven Mead mouthpiece in its large-shank receiver, and I think that's the main difference in the low register.

Up high, the Reynolds is a little brighter than the Besson, which is a little brighter than a big Willson, etc. But it still sounds like a euphonium.

American-style baritones of this configuration have been made going back to the late 1800's at least. Even the models from the turn of the century are relatively large-bored compared to any modern British-style baritone. All the top-action conical brasses share a saxhorn heritage, even the over-the-shoulder models popular in America during the Civil War. And we know that the British instruments are direct descendents, too. I can't say if British and American baritones have a common ancestor, but if so they have been on divergent paths for something like 100 years.

Klaus, my Reynolds is unlike any British baritone I've ever seen. I compared it to an old Besson three-valve compensating baritone and the Reynolds was noticeably fatter. I think it must be the height of the Reynolds that is making it seem more narrow. I should dig it out and photograph it next to the Besson, but the Besson is out on loan (reminder to self--time to hire a leg-breaker squad).

Rick "who once spent some time with an early-20's Besson BBb tuba with enharmonic valves, narrow bore, and narrow bell, but it was still a tuba" Denney

[MaryAnn]

I'm laughing at the "enharmonic valves" too! Ha!

I played as a ringer in the local brass band recently, on the 2nd baritone part. I took with me my Meinl Weston rotary bariton. At halftime, it was sitting there in its hard case with its pretty rotary valves on display, and a guy walked up and said, "So THAT is a baritone! I always wondered what one of those looked like!" And I had to launch into the BariTONE vs BariTON description. I did not even try to tell him what a bariTONE was but was able to show him the bariTON. One person asked me to play a couple notes on it so she could hear it, expecting I presume to hear some difference between it and a euphonium. But I suspect it just sounded like me playing a Bb baritone-pitched instrument.

MA

[RyanMcGeorge]

To quote the Great Brian Bowman:

"I play a brass instrument which has a rich, deep tone quality, one which has an important role in band music, and has an uncharted potential as a recital and concert instrument. I play the Euphonium."

I haven't found a quote for a baritone yet...maybe someone could make one...

[windshieldbug]

maybe someone could make one...

When choosing a brass instrument, I wanted something that could combine the grand, martial qualities of the trumpet with the lush, fullness of the horn, I wanted to, but instead I play a baritone...

[XtremeEuph]

This ones getting a little off topic, David Werdens site should settle things




O yeah........................................i better go with the flow of things

[Rick Denney]

Rick "who once spent some time with an early-20's Besson BBb tuba with enharmonic valves, narrow bore, and narrow bell, but it was still a tuba" Denney

Did the enharmonic valve system add a siginificant amount of weight compared to a tradtional valve system?

It was a similar amount of extra tubing compared to a standard three-valve compensation using the Blaikley system. In fact, the so-called enharmonic approach wasn't much different in end result to a Blaikely compensator. The leadpipe entered the third valve, and each combination had its own set of loops, with the third valve being the control valve.

But it was stuffy, stuffy, stuffy. It might have done better with a smaller mouthpiece than what I stuck in it (which was a Wick 1).

Rick "and yes it was heavy" Denney

[imperialbari]

Rick "who once spent some time with an early-20's Besson BBb tuba with enharmonic valves, narrow bore, and narrow bell, but it was still a tuba" Denney

Did the enharmonic valve system add a siginificant amount of weight compared to a tradtional valve system?

It was a similar amount of extra tubing compared to a standard three-valve compensation using the Blaikley system. In fact, the so-called enharmonic approach wasn't much different in end result to a Blaikely compensator. The leadpipe entered the third valve, and each combination had its own set of loops, with the third valve being the control valve.

But it was stuffy, stuffy, stuffy. It might have done better with a smaller mouthpiece than what I stuck in it (which was a Wick 1).

Rick "and yes it was heavy" Denney

There is more tubing in an enharmonic instrument than in a Blaikley system compensator.

The Blaikley system instruments are comparable to a compensating double horn in so far that the Bb side tubing always is used also, when the instrument is lowered by mean of the master- or shift-valve.

The enharmonic instruments are comparable to to full double horns, where the valve loops of the Bb side are not used, when the instrument is lowered by means of the master valve. The lower pitch has its own full-length valve loops. Hence the larger weight of the enharmonic instruments,

There are more observations to be done on these valve systems, but that may end up a bit complicated in my not so good technical English, so I will let them wait for now.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[windshieldbug]

Klaus,
Is there actually more tubing, or aren't they effectively the same length for the same note (and perhaps one has more bends... )
Mike