CC Tuba..Only way to go in the pro world?

[Steve Inman]

Do you really want to have to live up to that higher standard? Do you really believe in your Bb and Eb tubas so strongly that you are happy to start out behind? Or are you just used to them?

Tsk, tsk.


These times are a changin my friend, these times are a changin. More and more people play on instruments that sound like tubas and less like pregnant Euphoniums.

The players that define the new era of tuba playing are on Effers. The resistance and politics of "what key you play" are going away and being replaced with how well you play.

ØYSTEIN, Sheridan, professors... are accepting of almost any key these days. If you sound good, people don't care. Most people can't even tell unless they know the make and model of the horn anyway.

Heh heh ... sorry, but your "tsk tsk" doesn't quite trump Rick's well-reasoned statement... I DO hope you are correct, btw, as that would be refreshing. But as Dale so eloquently pointed out:

Now, for the cat who says a couple soloists using eefers establishes some new direction,

pffft

... that would be a score of "Named professionals -- 2", vs. " 'Just about every other US Pro who are almost all playing F' -- a few hundred". So at 100-to-1, your example, when scrutinized more closely, actually proves the opposite of your assertion.

Don't get me wrong -- I prefer most Eb tubas over most F tubas, and play Eb for my bass tuba. But I'm not convinced that there's a new direction "out there" -- not yet, anyway. Please let us know when 50% of the US symphony pros are playing Eb. Then I'll be convinced!

Cheers,

[Rick Denney]

The players that define the new era of tuba playing are on Effers.

I wasn't talking about them. I was talking about college professors. (That should generate hate mail from a whole new direction, heh, heh.)

But using players like Baadsvik and Sheridan as examples is pointless. If you can play like them, nobody will care what tuba you show up with. The more like them you are, the less it matters.

More the point: The less it matters to you. What Sheridan and Baadsvik are looking for in a tuba are beyond what most of us can perceive. When you get to the point where you've earned the right to buck the trend, you'll know what you want and why you want it, without needing the input of the Tubenet Freak Jury. And your college professor will just be glad you are in his program. That's not the position of most folks who are juniors in high school, however.

Rick "do not break the rules before learning them" Denney

[djwesp]

1. Do you guys honestly think those pros are playing Fs because they are the superior key? Or was it because of people like YOU and years of "that is just the key you are supposed to play in". I suspect european orchestral heritage has a lot more to do with it than anything, and the fact that F horns USED to be of superior manufacture.

2. Did I say that the majority of professional orchestra musicians play Eb? No. Patrick Sheridan and Oystein have brought the tuba more mainstream than those other pros of recent. They both play Eb, that is a trend in my opinion. I have never (other than an interesting man at Indiana and Bobo) heard a professor or professional tuba player criticize ANYONE for playing on "the wrong keyed horn". Heck, even the recording of the Vaughn Williams so much of us cherish is on Eb!

3. Music is one of the only professions where the product is overshadowed by the equipment to accomplish the product. In other facets of the arts and entertainment, the focus is on the product. AS IT SHOULD be. Jacobs lectures about this are fabulous.

4. If you didn't know the make and model of these horns, you wouldn't know what key they are in. That should say a lot about "which key is superior". The only reason you know what key these guys are playing on is because you know the instrument NOT THE SOUND.

But using players like Baadsvik and Sheridan as examples is pointless. If you can play like them, nobody will care what tuba you show up with. The more like them you are, the less it matters.

This is my point! It isn't pointless, it is obvious. Michael Jordan was Michael Jordan REGARDLESS OF THE SNEAKERS. Play what key you want. If the tuba community shuns you, that speaks a lot more for the community than it does anything else. A good tuba player, is a good tuba player and a GOOD TUBA PLAYER DID NOT GET THAT WAY by playing on a key that "they were told to because everyone else did it". They are good because they are talented and they worked their tails off.

[Rick Denney]

I guess what my biggest frustration is the people on here the colg the net with junk, the ones that post b.s. It makes the people that really care and want to talk about real tuba stuff not want to be here. And if you would rather have the junk posters then so be it and say goodbye to the people that really care. See how fast it will die then.

Every group of people having a conversation will have the standard conversational archetypes: The bore (that would be me), the boor, the pontificator (also me), the jerk, the clown, the curmudgeon, and all those other colorful types that keep life from getting dull. Why would the new format change any of that? Getting rid of that color will not promote forum longevity, based on my own experience in a variety of fora.

But our original poster at least clearly described what the thread was about in the title he gave it. I skip over threads with titles that don't interest me, and I recommend the practice.

Rick "respectfully submitted" Denney

[windshieldbug]

Are you trying to say that I'm the jerk and the clown, Rick?

(I know, if the foo sits, smear it... )

[Rick Denney]

This is my point! It isn't pointless, it is obvious. Michael Jordan was Michael Jordan REGARDLESS OF THE SNEAKERS. Play what key you want. If the tuba community shuns you, that speaks a lot more for the community than it does anything else. A good tuba player, is a good tuba player and a GOOD TUBA PLAYER DID NOT GET THAT WAY by playing on a key that "they were told to because everyone else did it". They are good because they are talented and they worked their tails off.

Huh? Do you think Sheridan started out on Eb? Do you think a 15-year-old Baadsvik told his teacher that those who played F were relics of the past? Maybe, but I bet not. I'll bet that both had to demonstrate proficiency on the standard instruments enough so that their genius developed and shown through, at which point they could choose their own path. Demonstrating that proficiency on instruments other than the ones they ended up with didn't seem to do them any harm.

But instead of frolicking at the deep end of the pool, swim back over to the shallow end where the vast majority of high-school juniors are making these decisions and asking these questions.

The question is not what tuba they should use. Had you read my first response fully you would realize that. In fact, I made the point that anyone good enough to seriously contemplate a pro career should not waste their time on this question--they should learn them all without hesitation so that they empower themselves to choose wisely as the situation demands.

My response, however, was aimed at kids not yet that good. If the key ultimately doesn't matter for a player who is good enough, are there non-musical issues to be considered? I believe there are.

College professors get some number of new tuba students each year. That number is at least 100 times the number that will end up as working pros. How do they figure out who to cultivate, to make their personal protege, to recommend to their pro buddies in real orchestras, to recommend to pros who take on only the best of the best students to nurture professionally? I suspect they consider mainly two things, including:

1. Current musicianship. Do they have real talent?

2. Level of commitment. Are they driven to be the best?

Current skills and current instrument aren't important in and of themselves, but they are markers into that second metric, and that second metric is more important than the first assuming the first has already satisfied a minimum threshold. If the kid is defensive about the tuba he is currently playing, but does not demonstrate the skills that prove he has a right to be defensive about it, then any human professor is going to assume he is either too broke or too lazy to consider an alternative. And being broke doesn't usually begat defensiveness, unless the kid is squandering money on luxuries (for a college kid, which probably include, say, a car). An exception might be that the professor agrees that the instrument is truly special as a result of having played it. But I think that's highly unlikely, and therefore it's not going to be the basis of advice I give to a high school junior.

By the way, I don't think were talking about using an Eb in lieu of an F. No college kid needs a bass tuba just coming in. I suspect we were talking about using an Eb in lieu of a contrabass tuba. Only in the UK will that not be a cause for pause on the part of the professor.

Most college professors will be happy to let the student play what they have for two or three years. Then it becomes time to make the Big Decision. Is the kid driven enough to do what it takes to get into equipment that won't hold him back? If I were a high-schooler considering a pro career, I'd be looking to switch to C earlier rather than later, even if to a "starter C" like a Miraphone 186. Then, when that big decision comes, it will go more smoothly, and it demonstrates drive and direction early on.

The bottom line on my post was that a student who takes on not only the enormous challenge of becoming good enough to succeed doesn't need the extra challenge of bucking instrument pitch politics. Very, very few students will be good enough to buck those politics without looking like they are doing it for unfavorable reasons.

When I was a young lad in engineering school, there was the Slide Rule Camp and the Calculator Camp. Slide rules were elegant and provided a clear understanding of the now lost art of significant figures, which is crucial to making reasonable engineering calculations. But calculators were much more powerful and efficient. (A few years later, computers replaced them both, but that's another story.) Some professors liked slide rules, and some embraced calculators. I used slide rules in the classes of the slide rule profs, and calculators in the classes of calculator profs. To succeed, I had to be proficient in numbers at the root of using both, but I didn't need to be in the middle of the debate between those two camps. Get it?

Rick "cautioning that advice to high-school kids should keep their best interests in mind and not be a new battleground for adult debates" Denney

[Wyvern]

Do you think a 15-year-old Baadsvik told his teacher that those who played F were relics of the past? Maybe, but I bet not. I'll bet that both had to demonstrate proficiency on the standard instruments enough so that their genius developed and shown through, at which point they could choose their own path.

I would be interested in confirmation from someone from that part of the world, but is not Eb, rather than F the usual in Norway (like in Britain)? In which case it would be surprising if Baadsvik did not play an Eb.

I do wonder why F is usual for the bass tuba in the US with so many old Monster Eb's apparently around? The perception in Britain is that the Eb is a much more adaptable instrument - it can effectively be used covering the role of an F and 4/4 CC.

[windshieldbug]

I do wonder why F is usual for the bass tuba in the US with so many old Monster Eb's apparently around? The perception in Britain is that the Eb is a much more adaptable instrument - it can effectively be used covering the role of an F and 4/4 CC.

From my experience in the US,
orchestra - CC, F
band - BBb, Eb

There are a TON more Eb's over here than F's...

[Rick Denney]

I would be interested in confirmation from someone from that part of the world, but is not Eb, rather than F the usual in Norway (like in Britain)? In which case it would be surprising if Baadsvik did not play an Eb.

That would surprise me, but I don't realy know. Klaus might be able to clear that up for us. Most of the Scandinavian performers I've seen, however, used F tubas. In any case, I am not prepared to believe that Baadsvik uses Eb out of a sense of habit.

I do wonder why F is usual for the bass tuba in the US with so many old Monster Eb's apparently around? The perception in Britain is that the Eb is a much more adaptable instrument - it can effectively be used covering the role of an F and 4/4 CC.

Remember a couple of points:

1. The bass tuba is (or has been) the standard instrument in Europe, and the contrabass is the exception for big works. In the U.S., the contrabass is the standard instrument, and the bass is the exception used where historically appropriate.

2. Monster Eb basses are not known for their good intonation. And relatively few of them even had four valves, let alone the valves or compensation needed to make them truly versatile for an orchestral player. And most of them also had forward bells. They are very popular for dixieland and other jazz, where those issues are easy to either avoid or exploit.

The British conception of the Eb covering the role of a 4/4 C is a natural expansion of the tuba role in the British orchestra--expanding from the use of the standard very small Barlow F tuba. But the use of an Eb for everything was not universal when the Barlow F was first made obsolete. Bevan includes a picture of George Wall playing an Alex contrabass in (I think) Covent Garden and Steven Wick holding a Hirsbrunner C, and we all know that Fletcher used a 6/4 Holton.

Also, the 4/4 C is no longer the default do-all instrument in many U.S. orchestras. Many American orchestral tuba players use a 6/4 instrument as their standard instrument, and they use something smaller only as necessary. There is no Eb tuba that can do what a 6/4 contrabass can do, as you know well. In the U.S., the normal size inflation has made that the standard instrument.

Rick "thinking the F tuba might still be the standard in British orchestras had Besson not stopped making them" Denney

[Dan Schultz]

There are a TON more Eb's over here than F's...

Yeah.... but most of 'em aren't worth having!

That comment is certain to draw some flack. I started out on Eb waaaay back in the 50's and stuck with it through the 80's when I finally made the switch to BBb. Why did I switch?... simple. I wanted to get a fuller bottom end and wanted to get the most bang for my buck. I could have purchased a new Besson but didn't want to make the investment. The only Eb horns here in the US were the crummy old three-banger Conns, Bueschers, Kings, etc. I don't think any domestic US company every put together a descent Eb tuba. Besides, by the end of the 50's, Eb horns had fallen from favor and were phased out by high school band directors.

[cjk]

Remember a couple of points:

1. The bass tuba is (or has been) the standard instrument in Europe, and the contrabass is the exception for big works. In the U.S., the contrabass is the standard instrument, and the bass is the exception used where historically appropriate.

Isn't this a gross generalization? While I know that in Germany it's F most of the time and BBb for low stuff, there are lots of different countries in Europe all with their own traditions. What do players in Poland or Greece use?

[finnbogi]

I would be interested in confirmation from someone from that part of the world, but is not Eb, rather than F the usual in Norway (like in Britain)? In which case it would be surprising if Baadsvik did not play an Eb.

I am no Norwegian, but probably close enough to answer this.
Norway has the strongest brass band tradition in all of Scandinavia (and probably in continental Europe). Therefore, I find it very likely that Øystein's first bass tuba was an Eb and that he read his part in treble clef.

[passion4tuba]

honestly i was making this post because i'm not in college, #2) my teachers dont care enough to explain this issue or many issues concerning the tuba and #3) i dont have a tuba lesson teacher.

i guess it's really unreasonable to ask professional players such an "obvious" question and expect a reasonable response...i thought the point of tubenet was to enlighten enthusiastic young players with thier passion...not discourage ever making another post.

[Steve Inman]

Oh come on now. You said:

Tsk, tsk.


These times are a changin my friend, these times are a changin. More and more people play on instruments that sound like tubas and less like pregnant Euphoniums.

The players that define the new era of tuba playing are on Effers. The resistance and politics of "what key you play" are going away and being replaced with how well you play.

ØYSTEIN, Sheridan, professors... are accepting of almost any key these days. If you sound good, people don't care. Most people can't even tell unless they know the make and model of the horn anyway.

All that's really there can be summed up by saying "I like Eb tuba." "I think it's better than F tuba." "Two well known pros also play Eb tuba." "I think there may be a trend starting, where college profs are willing to accept an Eb tuba."

But you have offered nothing to substantiate your position except to cite two pro players who use Eb tuba, and to try to create a "new era" out of thin air. Maybe it makes you feel better to be part of a "new era", but if this were a freshman composition assignment, you'd get an "F".

Oh, I almost forgot the smooth use of "tsk tsk" as the coup de grace of reason and maturity. Don't expect to impress very many folks on this forum with your present approach.

[Steve Inman]

honestly i was making this post because i'm not in college, #2) my teachers dont care enough to explain this issue or many issues concerning the tuba and #3) i dont have a tuba lesson teacher.

i guess it's really unreasonable to ask professional players such an "obvious" question and expect a reasonable response...i thought the point of tubenet was to enlighten enthusiastic young players with thier passion...not discourage ever making another post.

I understand your feelings, based on a re-read of this thread and noting some of the less charitable comments. Actually, you've received quite a few reasonable replies, and two that weren't terribly considerate. One of the more inconsiderate replies was taken to task by two other posters, so the honor of your post has been defended.

Try to ignore those posts that contain comments that don't apply to you, and glean the info that's there in the others. I bet you'll find that your question has been answered from a number of viewpoints.

Cheers,

[djwesp]

Oh come on now. You said:
All that's really there can be summed up by saying "I like Eb tuba." "I think it's better than F tuba." "Two well known pros also play Eb tuba." "I think there may be a trend starting, where college profs are willing to accept an Eb tuba."

But you have offered nothing to substantiate your position except to cite two pro players who use Eb tuba, and to try to create a "new era" out of thin air. Maybe it makes you feel better to be part of a "new era", but if this were a freshman composition assignment, you'd get an "F".

Oh, I almost forgot the smooth use of "tsk tsk" as the coup de grace of reason and maturity. Don't expect to impress very many folks on this forum with your present approach.

I don't like one key over the other. I like a good player. That is a perfectly reasonable response.

This is not a freshman composition assignment. This is a question about Tuba keys.

Tsk, tsk is far from a "coup de grace", it is a response. It has to do with how close minded you all sound. F and CC are not the end all be all of tuba keys, and the professionals that are the most widely known RIGHT NOW are on Eb tubas. Since key is of such important to you guys, I was pointing out the absurdity of assuming that F and CC are a prerequisite since the face of our instrument doesn't even play one.

I don't impress people on a forum. I impress them on a stage. I support a persons effort to improve their playing and play on the instrument that makes them sound the best.

Cutting down the fluff is easy.


Play what key you prefer, however most professionals choose F and CC. Easy enough, don't flame someone who thinks there is more to playing than equipment.

[Steve Inman]

1. Do you guys honestly think those pros are playing Fs because they are the superior key? Or was it because of people like YOU and years of "that is just the key you are supposed to play in". I suspect european orchestral heritage has a lot more to do with it than anything, and the fact that F horns USED to be of superior manufacture.

Sure, European (and now American) heritage plays a role. But let's drop the "Eb is better than F" thing. If I put a Yamaha YFB-822 against a Cerveny 641Eb, I can claim F tubas rule supreme and Eb tubas suck. There are good and bad models available in each key. Eb is NOT a better key for a bass tuba. But, neither is F the "better key".

And for the record, I play Eb tuba for my bass tuba, not the "right" key of bass tuba. Hence you can't lump me in with "people like YOU" -- sorry.

2. Did I say that the majority of professional orchestra musicians play Eb? No. Patrick Sheridan and Oystein have brought the tuba more mainstream than those other pros of recent. They both play Eb, that is a trend in my opinion. I have never (other than an interesting man at Indiana and Bobo) heard a professor or professional tuba player criticize ANYONE for playing on "the wrong keyed horn". Heck, even the recording of the Vaughn Williams so much of us cherish is on Eb!

No, you said there was a "new era" by citing two people. When my wife and I go to a restaurant for dinner, we are not trend-setters. Two people are NOT a trend, sorry. You are welcome to try to hold that opinion, but you'll never convince me it's valid by the info you provided. Oh, and simply stating that you've never heard a pro or a prof criticize someone for their choice of tuba key isn't very significant. What percentage of those present who COULD have BEEN CRITICIZED had an F bass tuba with them? I bet most of them did (since the number of Eb tubas out there is somewhat limited), hence the chance for criticism would be quite limited. You may be right that pros and profs are more open minded "these days" but to make a convincing argument, you need to give us more specifics. ("At the last International Eb Tuba Conference, two dozen professional F tubists showed up and complimented us on our fantastic playing.")

3. Music is one of the only professions where the product is overshadowed by the equipment to accomplish the product. In other facets of the arts and entertainment, the focus is on the product. AS IT SHOULD be. Jacobs lectures about this are fabulous.

Fine -- but this is just a side comment, and not directly related to whether one key is "better" than the other.

4. If you didn't know the make and model of these horns, you wouldn't know what key they are in. That should say a lot about "which key is superior". The only reason you know what key these guys are playing on is because you know the instrument NOT THE SOUND.

If by this you mean that NEITHER key can be proven better, I quite agree. Good pro players sound GREAT on either F or Eb tubas.

But using players like Baadsvik and Sheridan as examples is pointless. If you can play like them, nobody will care what tuba you show up with. The more like them you are, the less it matters.

This is my point! It isn't pointless, it is obvious. Michael Jordan was Michael Jordan REGARDLESS OF THE SNEAKERS. Play what key you want. If the tuba community shuns you, that speaks a lot more for the community than it does anything else. A good tuba player, is a good tuba player and a GOOD TUBA PLAYER DID NOT GET THAT WAY by playing on a key that "they were told to because everyone else did it". They are good because they are talented and they worked their tails off.

Nice sentiment. I happen to agree with you. But it does nothing to address Rick's initial reply. There is a bias in the tuba community for the F bass tuba, and just because you try to buck the trend doesn't mean it will be easy. And it doesn't mean the bias will magically disappear. If you choose an Eb tuba, you'll be working against bias, which is never easy. Just because you believe Eb is a viable choice doesn't mean the global music establishment will agree with you. Rant and complain all you want, but be prepared to swim upstream -- at least until you make it to the level of a Baadsvik or Sheridan!

[SplatterTone]

Much interesting discussion here. But the most important question about the "professional" world remains unanswered: Hanes or Fruit of the Loom??

[Rick Denney]

Play what key you prefer, however most professionals choose F and CC. Easy enough, don't flame someone who thinks there is more to playing than equipment.

Why do I have this feeling you are only reading the first sentence of each post? You are accusing us of playing pitch politics when it is me who is trying to keep our humble questioner out of that battle. Where in my advice did I claim any tuba was better for anything other than broadening the student's outlook on life?

A question: Do you think Oystein Baadsvik would show up for an audition for an American orchestra with his little Miraphone Eb tuba? Do you think Pat Sheridan would show up only with his 983? I suspect not.

Yes, great playing is great playing, and bad playing is bad playing, and both are independent of instrument. We all agree. But that isn't responsive to the question that was asked, which was, should I really expect to have to learn to play a CC tuba to play professionally?

Answer to that one is yes, unless you are good enough to carve your own path. Do you disagree?

Rick "who didn't realize that Arkansas was now Nebraska" Denney

[Rick Denney]

There is a bias in the tuba community for the F bass tuba, and just because you try to buck the trend doesn't mean it will be easy.

Steve, the funny thing here is that the original poster asked about whether playing a C was required for a pro, not F. And he was comparing that to an Eb. So, it's not an Eb versus F thing, or even a Bb versus C thing, but rather a big bass tuba versus contrabass tuba thing.

Outside the UK, I don't think there are many pros who think an Eb can be the only instrument--for many kinds of pro gigs. One good point against what I'm saying is that there are lot of pro gigs that would work fine on a small tuba. In fact, my little F is the only tuba that is a proven money maker for me. But kids going to college on these shores who want to play Eb instead of a contrabass will have a lot to prove.

It would also be true comparing a Bb to a C. But I think it's less true comparing an Eb to an F, and there, our tormenter is probably right that Sheridan and Baadsvik have opened some doors.

I was addressing the Bb or Eb vs. C for a college kid studying performance (and my comments apply only to that situation). Any kid wanting to learn to be a pro in college had better not be afraid of playing a C. Grownups can decide for themselves, and kids not aiming at a performance degree should play what pleases them and that they can afford, and be grateful for the opportunities of our good life.

Rick "who thinks advising about politics isn't the same as being a politician" Denney