Common Causes of Pitch Problems in Equipment

[Donn]

How well does the Bb play if fingered 14?

Much better than open. In a recent fantasy that I would use this thing to sub for a missing trombone player, that was going to be one of my tricks to make it work. Then I spent some more time with the tuner and abandoned that idea. It's bad all over, the Bb is just where it comes out and slaps your face.

One thing I have not tried is a leak test - it has been full of water, but not really checking for anything leaking out. Valve
slides seem to make a reasonable vacuum when drawn out.

When I got it, there was some waxy sludge in the valve section, slightly greenish from copper oxide.

I think a previous owner may have been a young student - poor kid!

[MaryAnn]

Alex french horns are known to have widely varying individual pitch tendencies. (i.e., some of them are out of tune and others are fine.) I play tested one around the time I bought my E. Schmid, and that particular Alex 200 was too out of tune for my taste. I don't want to pull slides for every other note, and I don't want to have to move my right hand (in a french horn) for every other note either.

Walter Lawson has a leadpipe design that has inner tapers; (it goes from larger to smaller to larger to smaller, etc, within the external leadpipe; it is a pipe-within-a-pipe) that works extremely well, on horns of other makes as well as his own. Not only are notes in tune but they lock in well, which I think is actually a function of being in tune; if the note happens to "want" to be where you want to buzz it...it will lock in well.

I still think the C problem on F tubas could be fixed by someone who understood leadpipe design. I think Walter Lawson could do it but no one has asked him to. An instrument whose notes lock in well out-of-tune is going to be very difficult to play in tune; one that does not lock in as well but is out of tune will feel much more playable by someone with a good ear.

The bell taper also has a lot to do with how well notes lock in. Same concept, basically. I heard a high level player playtest my Lawson bell on his E. Schmid horn; the sound was about the same as his wide Schmid bell, but it was obvious to both him and me that the fast passages he was using to playtest locked in better with the Lawson. He missed far fewer notes with the Lawson bell than he did with the Schmid bell. I found that fascinating. I'm sure Rick probably has given a more technical explanation somewhere along the line. What we need is for someone to actually get on the tuba leadpipe bandwagon and design some that work really well. They could make major bucks in the rotary bass tuba market.

MA

[Rick Denney]

What we need is for someone to actually get on the tuba leadpipe bandwagon and design some that work really well. They could make major bucks in the rotary bass tuba market.

There has been a lot of experimentation with leadpipes on instruments under development. I don't know how consistent pro-grade french horns are in basic design, but I wonder if they vary anywhere near as much as tubas do. To provide a custom leadpipe for any given tuba would require considerable experimentation that would not translate to other instruments, and I suspect the cost would exceed the acceptable price except in a few cases.

Some tubas have been provided with more than one interchangeable leadpipe for different applications and player preferences.

I recall a picture of Warren Deck experimenting with a (still straight) leadpipe on an early 2165, and I know that he fiddled with leadpipe tapers quite a bit with those instruments. He's not unique.

I'm not sure that the low C on an F tuba is a leadpipe issue. It's not a case of being out of tune--it's a case of having a side slot and not providing the reinforcing resonance that players accustomed to big tubas expect. Changing the leadpipe to repair that might well cause other problems. During the development of B&S F tubas, however, the leadpipes have been a key area of experimentation.

Maybe horns have a consistent leadpipe shape that makes it a lot easier to provide an aftermarket product, even when it's custom made.

Rick "thinking tubas vary more than most instruments" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

To start with, consider the length of a horn leapipe--what, about 30" or so? There's just so much more of it than there is on a tuba.

[MaryAnn]

I dunno on the length of a horn leadpipe. I'll have to go home and measure it. However horns have varying designs...Geyer, Kruspe, this, that, the other, having mostly (to amateur eyes) to do with the valve layout. However I'd guess that there is nowhere near the difference there is in F tubas.

On my F tuba, the C is dramatically sharp and that is why it doesn't want to play on the pitch I want to play it. A friend who has a 182 decided through experimentation that the tuning slide was quite a bit too short. He lengthened it, pushed in his valve slides, and says the entire thing is noticibly easier to play. I haven't done that yet, but my 182 is out on loan and I think the guy who borrowed it may be playing with tuning slide length. If the tuning slide (on mine) really is too short, then that C would become a lot more accessible given how sharp it wants to play now. It's generally easier to lip notes up than down, if you have out-of-tune slots to deal with, well for me anyway. However I'm no acoustician.

MA

[Lew]

I thought that the most common source of intonation problems was the attachment at the end of the mouthpiece.

[windshieldbug]

The attachments to the attachment at the end of the mouthpiece...

[Allen]

... ...
On my F tuba, the C is dramatically sharp and that is why it doesn't want to play on the pitch I want to play it. A friend who has a 182 decided through experimentation that the tuning slide was quite a bit too short. He lengthened it, pushed in his valve slides, and says the entire thing is noticibly easier to play.
... ...
MA

As far as I know, MW tubas are normally intended for A=443 or more. I have a MW 32 CC tuba which wanted to play rather sharp (compared to A=440), and not well in tune with itself. I did an experiment: I retuned the instrument to play at A=443, and it became in tune with itself. A little more research led me to Matt Walters at Dillon Music. He told me, "Of course your tuba is going to want to be sharp with the regular main tuning slide. What you need is the long main tuning slide." He sold me one. Now, my tuba has good intonation at A=440. [I do some first valve slide manipulation, but mainly to improve the quality of some notes.]

I suggest you call Dillon's and talk to Matt. His knowledge of these matters is amazing. It's possible that a longer main tuning slide is already available, and would do the trick for you.

Cheers,
Allen

[iiipopes]

And remember that if you have to get the longer main tuning slide, not only does 1st have to be manipulated, but you may have to pull the other valve slides slightly as well to even out the intonation with itself: 2 @ a mm or so, 3 possibly more depending on its characteristic, and 4 depends on the horn and what you want it for: the 4th down by itself or pulled for 2-4 and 1-4 to be better in tune.

[corbasse]

I dunno on the length of a horn leadpipe. I'll have to go home and measure it. However horns have varying designs........

The leadpipe of a Paxman triple is about 3-4'' before the first change valve. The crook of a Viena horn is some 4 ft..... Enough variation?
The actual conical part of the mouthpipe of a standard configuraton horn is about 12 - 20'' , so it varies quite a few inches according to model.. (Vienna horns have the shorter conical section)

[SplatterTone]

One can easily pull a muscle pitching even a compact F model.

Heimie Melindie, a little known minor league baseball pitcher in the 1920s, threw a shutout game entirely with F tubas.

[Eupher6]

Throat constriction, tension in the body or other interference with the air column.

[UDELBR]

Throat constriction, tension in the body or other interference with the air column.

Well, OP was asking about equipment-related pitch problems, but since you mentioned player-related pitch problems...

Some players play with inordinately open oral cavities, causing pitch to dive. I've picked up a 2165 from MW, and a Nirschl-York, both which had to have approx. 15cm cut from the main tuning slides. This is the only explanation offered at the factories.

[windshieldbug]

[Eupher6]

Throat constriction, tension in the body or other interference with the air column.

Well, OP was asking about equipment-related pitch problems, but since you mentioned player-related pitch problems...

Some players play with inordinately open oral cavities, causing pitch to dive. I've picked up a 2165 from MW, and a Nirschl-York, both which had to have approx. 15cm cut from the main tuning slides. This is the only explanation offered at the factories.

I dunno about you, but I consider the throat to be part of the equipment I'm working with!

[Chuck(G)]

And remember that if you have to get the longer main tuning slide, not only does 1st have to be manipulated, but you may have to pull the other valve slides slightly as well to even out the intonation with itself: 2 @ a mm or so, 3 possibly more depending on its characteristic, and 4 depends on the horn and what you want it for: the 4th down by itself or pulled for 2-4 and 1-4 to be better in tune.

Did you really mean a millimeter? If I run some numbers, a 2mm increase in length at the second slide on an F tuba results in a tuning change of less than 1 cent.

[windshieldbug]

I often find that pitch problems are due to the operator... espescially operators of violas!