Which one is the original? (conclusion found, I think)

[Søren]

I just acquired this B&S Model Symphonie BBb tuba. And I can not help notice the similarities with an Alexander BBb I used to have. I have here below listed some pictures of the horns. Do any of you know which one of them is the original and which one is the copy? Or are the both copies of a third horn?

The B&S horn








The Alex

[windshieldbug]

Or are the both copies of a third horn?

Those must be the Selman copies that they're always warning us against!!!

[cjk]

That same B&S model tuba is seen here in the USA as a stencil with Schneider or Sonora engraved on the bell.

That B&S model has significantly better intonation than an Alex, even better than a Mirafone 186. The B&S is also a smaller instrument.

I contend that neither is an original nor is one a copy of the other. The same basic layout has been used for over a century by many manufacturers. They may look the same, but so do the instruments of many other makers.

I believe B&S still makes this model and now calls it the model 3101, described as BBb-Tuba ¾ "Model W. Hilgers" 4 rotary valves. Evidently somebody else thinks rather highly of it, too.



http://www.vogtlaendische-musik.de/tuba ... b-tuba.htm

[Dan Schultz]

That same B&S model tuba is seen here in the USA as a stencil with Schneider or Sonora engraved on the bell.

That B&S model has significantly better intonation than an Alex, even better than a Mirafone 186.

I concur on all count except that it is better that a Mirafone 186.... maybe as good would be a more acceptable statement.

I just sold one of these 'stencils' that was a Carl Wunderlich. Very nice playing horn.... but not as nice as my Mirafone 186.

[Søren]

Thank you

The two tubas are also extremely similar in size. Since I have sold the Alex I can not measure it, but to me there is no difference. And they are not 3/4 tubas. At least 4/4 size tubas or even 5/4 tubas. To give you an idea of the size, here is a picture of the Alex flanked by my B&S F and a Besson New standard BBb (currently owned by Klaus)



And it looks down to the strap holders like the Alex, though all the small supports clearly are B&S made. Here you see the logo on the BBb, which is just like the one I have on my B&S F Symphonie.



My B&S F and BBb Model Symphonie side by side



And the intonation is superb! And as some of you speculate, just as good, or even better than that of a standard Miraphone. And the response is just as good as on my F.

And commenting on the tone compared to the Alex. I think that they sound more or less the same. The sound I get out of this even with a Kellyberg is much more interesting and colourful than on any other tuba I have played. That being said, my Alex might have needed a new leadpipe, and that would probably have helped the sound a bit.

And one thing that also struck me was the entering the first valve at an angle of 45 degrees. It seems not to be a common thing on rotary tubas, though it is found on both the Alex and this B&S

[Søren]

After a good two hour search in the archives, I have found two comments about this kind of tuba. And they are both by Bloke

Nr1:
"In the mid-1970's, a person could buy a B&S-made 4-rotor BBb tuba from Giardinelli (in NYC) and a couple of other importers for c. $700.

During that same time (for comparison) a Mirafone model 186 4-rotor BBb tuba was costing c. $1700...big moolah

Even in the late '70's / early '80's when these same B&S-made tubas were imported by Selmer USA, those tubas were still priced lower than Mirafone 186 tubas.

imo, those old B&S-made BBb tubas (that were quite similar in appearance to 4/4 Alexander BBb tubas) are some of the best 4/4-size 4-rotor BBb tubas ever made. "

Nr2
"That is one of the curious things that I've observed regarding instruments from this factory. Two of their old designs - their classic "Symphonie" F tuba and their "tall" rotary BBb tuba (similar to Selmer USA-imported "Schneider") played extraordinarily well in tune requiring few adjustments. It seems as though the more models they develop, the more intonation goes out the window... "

[cjk]

The instrument I pointed to is

3101
BBb-Tuba ¾ "Model W. Hilgers" 4 rotary valves
Bore: 19 mm (0.748´´)
Bell diameter: 420 mm (16-1/2´´)
Height: 110 cm (43-1/3´´)
Nickel silver rim

I wouldn't consider that 3/4. I'd be willing to bet that the specs match Søren's instrument near exactly.

The picture I linked is taken at an angle, not straight on so it looks a bit skinnier.

Old Alexanders had 45 degree leadpipe entrance into the first valve. New ones go straight in. The same deal with the B&S.

[imperialbari]

---

[Søren]

Thanks for all the inputs.

I called you Klaus because I just wanted your opinion on this tuba before I bought it. But when I got the valves aligned, there was no doubt if I should buy it or not. But it is always nice to call you and get your opinion before I buy a tuba.

It seems to me that the only thing to do now is to look for an Eb tuba to add to this family(together with my Weltklang Eb helicon).
I have seen a Weltklang Eb from this era before, which was actually was I had been talking to Klaus about in the discussion Klaus mentioned. If I am not able to find a Symphonie (as Klaus stats is impossible since they did only make BBb and F in the top line of instruments ), a Weltklang must do the trick. From what I understand, the difference is mostly in the finish and the valve linkage.
Is that right?

[Søren]

Similar, I think.

It seems that I now have some kind of answer to my own question.
The layout of my two tubas is a quite common, older design for rotary BBb tubas, having it’s origin in Europe somewhere. The following was found by looking on that auction site:

http://cgi.ebay.de/Tuba-Bb-Kaisertuba-H ... dZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sonora-4-Valve-Rota ... dZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Karl-Ziess-4-Valve- ... dZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/charming-New-2006-s ... dZViewItem


And others with variation on the same theme:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Tuba-BBb-New-Model- ... dZViewItem


And this Yamaha seems to be a clone between a Miraphone/MW and this old design

http://cgi.ebay.com/Yamaha-YBB-641-BBb- ... dZViewItem


But even with this quite identical design, they probably play quite differently. I know that my Alex and B&S is quite different.

The conclusion must be that none of my horns is the original, and the identical layout is no coincidence. They are both made in Europe, and the design is common one in the region where they where made. Agree?