Don't Discount All Dings

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:47 pm

Don't discount all dings. Yes, some of the cosmetic ones in the bell and bugle may not amount to anything, but I had one that did. I had a small ding in the primary knuckle between the 1st & 2d valve casing. I also had some stuffiness. I had given it up to the nature of comp tubas and possibly worn valves. After the fall season of university community band was over, I had it gone over, and asked my tech specifically about this dent. He said he'd work on it.

It turned out that the metal is so thick that what appeared to be a ding that didn't amount to much actually occluded the port about 1/4. He ran the usual plugs through it, relapped the valves, and now I can actually do 1-3 to 3 and open to 2-3 trills without completely cracking, lip slurs pop better, and 1-3 isn't nearly as stuffy as it used to be. Pianissimo is much easier, and fortissimo does not crack.

Yes, we tend to get condescending in reply to posts that grieve over scratches and small dings, but occasionally one does make a difference. He also smoothed out a couple of dings in my lead pipe while he was at it. Since the fixing the knuckle dent made such a difference, I'm not sure how much more the dings out of the leadpipe helped.

Anybody else with dings that actually did matter?

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:59 pm

In the true tradition of eBay "dings", I'm working on a Walter Sear BBb that bounced out of a pickup truck bed onto I-5. Now those are some dings.

Strange thing is that I'll take a "freeway tuba" any day over a horn that's a battered refugee from a public middle school...

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:51 pm

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:03 pm

Do you mean little dings like this?....

UDELBR · Post by **UDELBR** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:37 pm

TubaTinker wrote:Do you mean little dings like this?....

I love the little "FIX" sign on the 4th valve tubing.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:29 pm

Wait! I said ding! Not hammer-peen finish! Oh, wow, now that's a piece of work!

That is funny. At what point does "fix" become "rebuild?"

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:54 am

UncleBeer wrote:
TubaTinker wrote:Do you mean little dings like this?....

I love the little "FIX" sign on the 4th valve tubing.

Heh heh... that was MY note. Yamaha offers some of their factory knuckles as seperate parts. That particular one that is marked 'fix' is one that they don't offer so I marked it 'fix' so I wouldn't cut it off when I replaced the others. Kind of like the steps a hospital takes when they mark a surgery patient up so they won't remove the wrong organ!

UDELBR · Post by **UDELBR** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:20 am

TubaTinker wrote: That particular one that is marked 'fix' is one that they don't offer so I marked it 'fix' so I wouldn't cut it off when I replaced the others.

I figured there was a good reason. Just tickled me with all the damage on that horn, that one little "FIX" sign.

The Big Ben · Post by **The Big Ben** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:16 am

TubaTinker wrote:
UncleBeer wrote:
TubaTinker wrote:Do you mean little dings like this?....

I love the little "FIX" sign on the 4th valve tubing.
Heh heh... that was MY note. Yamaha offers some of their factory knuckles as seperate parts. That particular one that is marked 'fix' is one that they don't offer so I marked it 'fix' so I wouldn't cut it off when I replaced the others. Kind of like the steps a hospital takes when they mark a surgery patient up so they won't remove the wrong organ!

Was this damage vandalism? Might be a dumb question but I can't see that sort of damage coming from dropping or 'regular abuse'.

Is this a 'work in progress' or have you finished it?

Jeff

MikeMason · Post by **MikeMason** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:34 am

sometimes school kids get the urge to just bash stuff with their mouthpiece.Little darlings.....

ASTuba · Post by **ASTuba** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:05 am

This horn looks better than some school instruments that kids were still playing, when I was a full time repair guy.

I'd like to see the finished results Dan.

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:08 pm

ASTuba wrote:This horn looks better than some school instruments that kids were still playing, when I was a full time repair guy.

I'd like to see the finished results Dan.

I put the horn back together yesterday. Here's a picture:

The knuckle damage was probably the most dramatic to view but the bottom bow and the back bow were also smashed about 50%!

There's a little buffing to go yet... but you get the idea. Total time invested so far including stripping, taking apart every branch, rolling the bell, straightening the slides, and putting it all back together is about 20 hours plus less than $50 in parts. I don't know what the owner originally paid for the horn but I'll bet it wasn't much! He'll end up with a good player for a total investment of perhaps under $1,000.

MaryAnn · Post by **MaryAnn** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:26 pm

Not my ding, but: friend's vintage 28D (french) horn with Lawson leadpipe had a half-inch dent in the bell branch. She is a pro, thought her horn was just getting old and harder to play. She had the ding out "just because" after it had been there for quite some time, and ... lo and behold....all of a sudden the horn returned to its former glory state. Notes locked in again. She was astonished and of course wished she had fixed it long ago.

Makes me believe the tuba rumor of the F tuba that suddenly developed a playble low C when it got a dent in a particular place. Seems entirely plausible, given the problems that can go away when a dent is removed.

It also makes me believe the "concrete flute" theory of a physicist friend of mine, who says the tone of a flute is due 100% to the shape of the internal tube, and that a concrete flute would sound the same as a platinum one if the internal shapes were identical. He gives an hour-long talk at workshops, BTW, in which he demonstrates how the harmonic series of a trumpet changes as you change the tube diameters; he starts with a straight tube and replaces parts of it as he goes along, until he has a straight (not bent) trumpet with an in-tune harmonic series. Most of it, in his talk, is the bell branch and the lead pipe. He doesn't deal with dents per se in the talk.

MA

ASTuba · Post by **ASTuba** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:39 pm

TubaTinker wrote:
ASTuba wrote:This horn looks better than some school instruments that kids were still playing, when I was a full time repair guy.

I'd like to see the finished results Dan.
I put the horn back together yesterday. Here's a picture:

The knuckle damage was probably the most dramatic to view but the bottom bow and the back bow were also smashed about 50%!

There's a little buffing to go yet... but you get the idea. Total time invested so far including stripping, taking apart every branch, rolling the bell, straightening the slides, and putting it all back together is about 20 hours plus less than $50 in parts. I don't know what the owner originally paid for the horn but I'll bet it wasn't much! He'll end up with a good player for a total investment of perhaps under $1,000.

Dan,

Did you replace those knuckles, or are those the original ones on the instrument?

Nice job, either way.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:52 pm

MaryAnn wrote:It also makes me believe the "concrete flute" theory of a physicist friend of mine, who says the tone of a flute is due 100% to the shape of the internal tube, and that a concrete flute would sound the same as a platinum one if the internal shapes were identical.

Sandy Dreilinger does a pretty good business in headjoints by maintaining that it's only the headjoint that really matters on a flute. That one cannot tell the difference in tone between a brass flute body and a 14K gold one.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:15 pm

Chuck(G) wrote:In the true tradition of eBay "dings", I'm working on a Walter Sear BBb that bounced out of a pickup truck bed onto I-5. Now those are some dings.

Strange thing is that I'll take a "freeway tuba" any day over a horn that's a battered refugee from a public middle school...

Is that because of the damage being of a different sort, or the frustration akin to Sisyphus knowing you'll have to fix the same thing over, and over, and over....

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:57 pm

ASTuba wrote:
TubaTinker wrote:
ASTuba wrote:This horn looks better than some school instruments that kids were still playing, when I was a full time repair guy.

I'd like to see the finished results Dan.
I put the horn back together yesterday.... (snip) ...... He'll end up with a good player for a total investment of perhaps under $1,000.
Dan,

Did you replace those knuckles, or are those the original ones on the instrument?

Nice job, either way.

The top knuckles #1 & #3 are new. The rest I was able to save without cracking. It's always best to anneal everything first before trying to work out dents that severe. I was prepared to replace all of them but didn't have to. The shadows in the picture are a bit strange but the knuckles are really smoother than they appear.

eupher61 · Post by **eupher61** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:51 am

MaryAnn wrote: Makes me believe the tuba rumor of the F tuba that suddenly developed a playble low C when it got a dent in a particular place. Seems entirely plausible, given the problems that can go away when a dent is removed.

ahem....that's probably MY B&S F you're referring to. Some time back I emailed Bob Tucci a picture, and he told me it's probably right on or extremely close to a node, and that could be more than enough to knock the node out. There were plenty of witnesses at the moment (well, 2) and my reaction was instantaneous. IF I can get a good pic of it soon I'll post.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:31 pm

Hey eupher61: I absolutely believe you. That's the same reason Schilke did research for his step bore configuration, and why I advocate feeling for the vibration node and putting a small strip of golfer's lead tape around the particular place. It worked for me on my tuba to fix some intonation issues as well.

dmmorris · Post by **dmmorris** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 6:15 pm

TubaTinker wrote: The ...... knuckles ........ are new.

Does anyone know if Yamaha sells new knuckles for their YEP321??

I have an old euphonium that could use a similar surgery.