More Chemical Cleaning Questions

[ArnoldGottlieb]

I was just having a family conversation and realized I have some facilities for chem cleaning my own horns. So, what commercial chemicals might I use. We have a supply of muriatic acid but it was mentioned that it might be too strong for a horn. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Peace.
ASG

[iiipopes]

No, No, No! on the muriatic acid. It will eat the hell out of your horn.

I believe the solution used is a buffered phosphoric acid, as you find in certain cola soda pops. Ask a local tech.

[ASTuba]

If you're not trained how to do this, you can cause very serious damage to a tuba. Lacquer can come off, brass can be eaten away, or there could be serious damage done to you as well.

Why take that chance? Leave it to the professionals that know what they're doing.

[ArnoldGottlieb]

Hey Andy,
I'm not taking a chance with my main horn. But I thought it might be cool to try with my not so great horns. Just asking though, not doing anything yet. Thanks for the answers so far.
Peace.
ASG

[ASTuba]

Arnold,

I know that when I first got interested in repair, a shop let me go in and watch/help them the afternoon in doing things. One of the things they had me do was chemical clean trumpets. Might be worth it to go visit one so they can show you.

[Chuck(G)]

Sulfamic acid (get it as a powder from a tile-supply store) is mild enough that it won't gas you or eat up your horn. You can also order the same stuff from Ferree's.

Dilute muriatic's okay, but don't use it anywhere the fumes will settle on steel or iron--it'll put a nice coating of rust on your table saw overnight. I still use it (out of doors) for tough jobs.

Phosphoric's probably okay too, but I haven't had much experience with it except as a soldering flux for stainless steel.

[tubaguy9]

As far as the chem stuff goes, along with repairs, try e-mailing Jeffery Funderburk. His contact info is on his site (http://www.uni.edu/drfun/FunderburkIndex.html) He says that the only parts put in Muriatic Acid are the valves, and the valves are only put in diluted muriatic acid (50/50 mix, if I remember right) and before he puts it back in his horn, he puts it in a baking soda neutralizer.

[Dean E]

I use a dilted solution of "CLR," from JELMAR. The active ingredient is lactic acid. Other minor ingredients are gluconic acid and lauryldimethyl hydroxysultaine. The product is available at hardware stores. The material safety data sheets for the CLR line are at this link:
http://www.hescoinc.com/Msds/comcl4.pdf

I've used CLR for sousaphone projects--outside in a child's wading pool. A soft cloth or sponge can help ease away years of black tarnish. Valves and slides with green deposits can be cleaned with the help of a soft-bristle toothbrush or auto detailer's brush. I've also used brass, shotgun-bore cleaning brushes for 100-year old deposits in tuning slides.

I think that CLR is fairly safe for use by do-it-yourselfers when diluted and used with ventilation. Cleaned parts should be neutralized with baking soda and well rinsed before reassembly.
***************************
An interesting, cautionary discussion on a horn forum is at:
http://www.hornplayer.net/archive/a300.html
The posters warn against usuing muriatic acid because of possible brass erosion.
***************************
Ferree's Tools sells Etch-Klenz from Chemsearch.

[Chuck(G)]

You could always fill your horn with this stuff:



Nice, dilute phosphoric acid.

[iiipopes]

You could always fill your horn with this stuff:



Nice, dilute phosphoric acid.

And some would say buffered as well!

[tubabill]

Pour straight vinegar in your slides (you can take them out too) and let it soak for a while. It won't hurt the lacquer unless you leave it in there for some ungodly time. I did it to my Wilson and it worked like a charm. Got all the gunk and growing stuff out. You'll want to wash it out of course or you'll be breathing in vinegar air and that's not pleasant. (I know)

[tubabill]

Oh and Vinegar is CHEAP and you can get it anywhere!!!

[Chuck(G)]

My point with Coke is that all strong acids are water-soluble and can be rinsed away quite completely with water. (No, you don't have to use a basic chaser.) Timing is everything--you can probably turn a horn to scrap metal if you leave it filled with vinegar for a month. That's why some use muriatic acid--it works very quickly and if you know your stuff, you won't damage a thing. As Joe mentioned, chromic acid was used (can you even get it any more?) and is one of the strongest acids around.

Use any acid you like (although I'd probably stay away from fumig red nitric acid or peracetic acid) and watch the dilution and don't leave things in too long.

Use pink lemonade or cranberry juice if it satisfies your aesthetic sense--there are household de-limers whose main active ingredient is citric acid.

[Chuck(G)]

Being a chemist, I'd say good luck for getting chromic acid. You can still order it from chemical suppliers, but the stuff is nasty, toxic, and environmentally terrible. We used to have to clean glassware in it, and then they developed "no-chromix" which was equally nasty, but "better".

Seems that any chromium-bearing compounds are verboten. I still miss my zinc chromate primer.

When dealing with acids, please be careful, and "allways add acid", if you have strong stuff, it can get really hot really fast.

Or, as we were taught, "Do as you oughter... add acid to water.â€

[Dan Schultz]

I use sulfamic acid for chem-cleaning. It's the same stuff that stonemasons and concrete finishes use for cleaning up morter and doing exposed agregate. It does a very good job of removing mineral deposits from brass without damaging the brass. It's fairly safe to handle inasmuch as there are no fumes and it will only go into solution 10% by weight. It's cheap... about $40 for a fifty-pound bag at most any commercial chemical place. Now that I've gotten you all worked up and ready to chem-clean your own horns on the cheap.... READ ON....

This is still an acid and will damage you, your horn, and your home/garage/basement/backyard if you don't use it correctly. You need a plastic tank large enough to hold a tuba. You need eye protection. You need rubber gloves.....

Oh... never mind. Spend a few bucks and take your horn to a good repairman who has experience at this.

[Chuck(G)]

Come on Chuck, get adventurous...

You want adventure? How about prussic acid?

[Art Hovey]

Here's a little story about vinegar. A couple of years ago I was making a replacement valve stem, and decided to try starting with a Stainless Steel bolt. I managed to drill a hole into it (for the valve cap to screw into) and was cutting threads into the hole with a tap. which broke off in the hole. I couldn't get the broken piece out. So I put the valve stem into a small jar of vinegar and let it sit with a cover on it for a couple of weeks. The steel tap completely dissolved away, leaving no trace. The stainless steel was untouched by the acid, and I was able to finish tapping the hole with a new tap. Vinegar is not as fast-acting as some acids, but it gets the job done if you give it time. On brass I would suggest testing it on small parts to find the ideal reaction time. But I would also want to see how rapidly it eats away the solder joints. I suspect that it will work faster on solder than it will on brass. (Comments about that from real chemists would be welcome here.)

[Chuck(G)]

The sodium salt of prussic acid will work for ya if you're siver plating... nut yeah, I've dealt with it on occasion, and if you're careful there's nothing to fear. I think I'm more scared of HF - hydrogen fluoride - eats through glass, and will kill you with very minor exposure...

But the fluoride salt of tin goes into your toothpaste. And NaF isn't regulated nearly as much as NaCN.

Truth be told, organic compounds scare me a lot more than the inorganics. I mean, if you accidently dump the sodium fluoride into the acid tank, you can still run for the exit. But spill a few drops of dimethyl mercury on yourself...

[Teubonium]

When dealing with acids, please be careful, and "allways add acid", if you have strong stuff, it can get really hot really fast.

Or, as we were taught, "Do as you oughter... add acid to water.â€

[Chuck(G)]

Here we go again . . .

O shed a tear for little Willy,
A boy we'll see no more.
For what he thought was H2O
Was H2SO4.

(Too bad I can't figure out the super- and sub-script stuff right now. Sorry.)

Doesn't matter anyway, pHpBBS doesn't allow it:

H₂SO₄

E = mc²

<strike>It doesn't allow this either</strike>