tuba fads

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Søren
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Post by Søren »

Fell for it?


It works.


(who only knows because his father works in molecular chemistry)
Well, I study more or less related topics. And I do not see how it works. I see the topic of freezing more as a "solid state" physics question, but I guess that one could call it molecular chemistry (though I think that all kinds of chemistry involves the study of molecules).

Anyway, could you explain why it works?

I have, by the way, reviewed a couple of my text books on the subject, but came up empty.
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anonymous4
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Post by anonymous4 »

Scooby Tuba wrote:Oh, Rudy 4345 piston and rotary, too.
What's the knock on these? I never had one myself, but most people I know who owned the piston model liked it.

Perhaps you are just saying that it's past "fad" status because people aren't running out to buy them anymore?
Rick Oakes
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The statement that...

Post by Rick Oakes »

..."I only care about the sound" (referring to a particular horn). "I'll work around the intonation issues if the sound is right".

---Similar statements seemed to be common on TubeNet a few years ago. They seem to have disappeared.
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Post by djwesp »

Søren wrote: Anyway, could you explain why it works?

I have, by the way, reviewed a couple of my text books on the subject, but came up empty.

Metals and plastics are formed in a state of stress. The article is in an inherent state of tension do to the process of manufacture.

Cryogenically freezing plastics (some) and metals, as close to absolute zero as possible (since we are, obviously, unable to achieve absolute zero) you put the article as close to a zero motion molecular state of mass as possible. Just as with most elements the lower the temperature, the harder the material because the molecules are more dense. In metallurgy this is referred to as thermal compression. By exposing the item to prolonged situations of high density thermal compression, when the article is returned to a normal temperature, the molecules return in a more unified pattern (although tests show that the overall density of the material remains higher even after it returns to room temperature). This increased density following the process is a result of carbide fillers imparting themselves into the metal. This pattern is very different from the stressed molecular pattern inherent with plastic and metal manufacture. (this process is explicitly defined in the 1987 "Batelle Report")

Another change occurs because carbon carbides are precipitated from cryogenic treatment (they intertwine in a tight 5 sided structure). This imparts greater resistance to wear.


Resulting density and hardness tests are easily observed on the Rockwell Hardness scale. Overall density, hardness, and molecular tension have a direct correllation with acoustics of the item.


**Rick Denney type disclaimer**

(who doesn't claim to be a metallurgist, molecular chemist, solid state phys... or anything close)
Last edited by djwesp on Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by djwesp »

...duplicate
Last edited by djwesp on Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Chuck(G)
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Post by Chuck(G) »

I can see how carbides matter in steel, but carbides in copper or brass? Got a reference for carbide content in bronzes?
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Post by Chuck(G) »

cktuba wrote:Wow, Accousticoils go way back to the 80's (first saw them at Keystone back in '86) and skeletonized mouthpieces to even before that don't they? Both, well before TubeNet.
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Post by djwesp »

Chuck(G) wrote:I can see how carbides matter in steel, but carbides in copper or brass? Got a reference for carbide content in bronzes?
It is a common misconception that carbides are not ingredients in the brass manufacture process.

On a commercial level large amounts carbides/other metalss are added. Instrument manufacturers use this to increase rigidity and resistance to overall wear.

Alone, there should be no conversion of austinite to martinsite, but because the processes used to manufacture the instruments have taken them away from true brass, this is no longer the case.

Brass lacks the chemical conversion that is used to pinpoint property changes in steel alloys. The only related evidence as such in pure copper lays in hardness tests and the transfer of stresses out of the material via realignment from the temperature change.

(this conversation is getting farther over my head in a hurry)

Still not claiming to be anything close to an authority on any of this, and most of my information is second hand. (will continue the disclaimer as long as discussion continues :oops: )
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yo

Post by Biggs »

The John Williams tuba concerto
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Post by Chuck(G) »

djwesp wrote:It is a common misconception that carbides are not ingredients in the brass manufacture process.
Wes, I'm sorry that I can't find any reference anywhere to carbon being added to brass alloys intentionally. Lead, tin, manganese, nickel, etc., sure, but not carbon. Got a cite for me?

I'm not maintaining that deep cryo doesn't result in a phase change in a brass (there's science that says otherwise), but I don't believe it's the carbide kind, but rather a change in the structure of the copper lattice.

What I don't have conclusive evidence for is (1) does this phase change result in any appreciable change in acoustic properties and (2) is the cryo treatment done by the folks who've invested in a dewar of N2 sufficient to effect such a change?
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Post by djwesp »

I'll work on finding a tactful way of citing my source. :) As soon as I figure out how to do so without making a certain instrument manufacturer upset. This seems to be the only aspect of the conversation I can personally attest to, which is why it makes it the most difficult to respond to given the situation.
Chuck(G) wrote:
What I don't have conclusive evidence for is (1) does this phase change result in any appreciable change in acoustic properties and (2) is the cryo treatment done by the folks who've invested in a dewar of N2 sufficient to effect such a change?

I don't know. I've played on a 186CC before a cryofreeze and then afterwards. I thought it was darker, but just like most things in the instrumental world, how do we gauge this?

(no, I wasn't the one doing the cryo freezing. I'm not a proponent of it, as I'm poor and have enough things I can work on personally to get better.)
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Post by jeopardymaster »

It may be OK for Walt Disney, but not for any tuba of mine! Oh wait, somebody on TV just said Walt isn't a popsicle after all.

Look, I'm sure torturing a brass instrument in this way can change its molecular structure. But in my opinion 1) it doesn't help, b) [stuff] happens and iii) the return fails to justify the cost and risk.

Maybe it's worthwhile as a joke -- like just do it to the mouthpiece while little Jimmy isn't looking. Then again, maybe not so funny after all.
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Re: The statement that...

Post by SplatterTone »

Yamaha Silent Brass
I have to say, the mute does indeed shut down the sound without affecting the playability too much. But it's beyond me how the audio pickup / amplifier combo could sound so bad.
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Post by bttmbow »

Scoob. The answer is two.

Somebody mentioned synthetic valve oil, reminding me of Alisyn, which, when used after/before petroleum based oils, would make your valves almost unable to move. I am glad I never used that stuff.

BTW, sometimes the NEW thing can be worth all the hype, just look REAL careful before you jump. Once your baby's gone, it's gone... unless you're lucky enough to get her/him back! (it might take a bit more than some flowers and a box of chocolates, however)
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Post by WoodSheddin »

anyone mention St. Petersburg tubas yet?

Perhaps the ultimate bell bottoms tuba would have been Kelly O'Bryant's tricked out Yamaha 621 F tuba with gold accents, adjustable gap receiver, vented valves, custom valve caps, a Dillon Bronze mouthpiece, and a performance of Blackbird live on stage.

I went to school with Kelly, so if he is reading this, I meant the previous paragraph in good spirit. I know Matt at Dillon Music can now take this in stride.
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Post by LoyalTubist »

- Caravelle commuter tubas (keep the fiberglass bell at home and the metal bell at school)
- Marzan tubas
- Mirafone [sic] sousaphones with three and four valves
- tubas playing the piccolo obbligato in "The Stars and Stripes Forever" while the piccolos and flutes played the bassline (1973)
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Søren
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Post by Søren »

You refer that some of the stresses in the metal will be released when nearing absolute zero. I accept that. But freezing a tuba in what ever way, will be far from absolute zero. At least 100 Kelvin if you freeze it some of the more expensive ways, otherwise it would be around 150 Kelvin from absolute zero.

It is right that one can add impurities to metals to get other properties of the metal (adding carbon to steel for example). But if you take a close look at brass, it consists of small crystals packed together. And I seem to think, that as long that you do are interested in the properties of tuba sound, it must be in the packing of the crystals (or the interface between crystals) that might make a difference, not so much the properties inside each individual crystal. Heating will have an effect on this (I think brass repair men call it annealing?) and I guess impurities will play a role too. (in semiconductors, it is all about the right kind of defects in a crystal because it changes the electrical properties drastically.)

And if the horn sounded darker after the freeze, you could have done a spectral analysis of the tone before and after to see if there was any change. What you heard could be an effect of you playing the horn in different rooms, and so on.

Sorry, I still do not see why freezing a tuba could make any noticeable change to the sound.
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Post by iiipopes »

Søren wrote:Sorry, I still do not see why freezing a tuba could make any noticeable change to the sound.
http://www.whc.net/rjones/jlynch/cryo/
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Post by windshieldbug »

bloke wrote:isn't sure that you can effectively 'freeze' solid materials, unless they are first changed to their liquid or gaseous forms"
Yeah, isn't a tuba "frozen" already!? :shock: :D

(or is that just the violas?)
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Post by dmmorris »

5th or 6th valves on BBb tubas. :wink:
beta 14??..........OK!

Mid 70's B&S Tuba
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