Holes in leadpipe

Kendra · Post by **Kendra** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:54 am

I have a question for you all...

I have a five year old Hirsbrunner Exclusive. I took it for a cleaning at a well-known brass repair shop in Chicago last week. When I picked it up, it had 2 noticible pin holes in the leadpipe. After further inspection, MANY holes have been found throughout the leadpipe. The manager at the company says that my leadpipe has rotted out and that the cleaning only found the holes that were covered with dirt. I am finding this a little suspicious just because there are SOOO many holes! However, I have had this happen before... with my 10-year old Willson. The Hirsbrunner is only 5 years old! The company is telling me it's because it has been well-played by myself and it's previous owner. It's a PROFESSIONAL horn, though... it's meant to be played a lot. The previous owner and I took good care of it as well. Doesn't make sense!!

Has anyone ever had this experience with their instruments? If so, what would you recommend I do? Currently, the company is dissembling the leadpipe and filling the holes for me so that I can continue to play this horn until I get a new leadpipe from Hirsbrunner (which I know that I must do). I'm wondering if I should get a sterling silver or a gold leadpipe to slow this rotting process down in the next one.

Any suggestions???

Kendra Gohr

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:00 am

One "conventional" fix is to use a leadpipe made out of an alloy that has more copper than the standard yellow @ 70/30 brass, whether you call it gold brass, rose brass or red brass. The thought is that with more copper in the alloy, there is less zinc to rot away, so the leadpipe lasts longer. And since it is a similar alloy, unlike sterling silver, given the same taper it shouldn't change the tone audibly.

Then again, a lot of people actually prefer the tone of sterling silver, as it supposedly has a more even resonance of partials. The King company originally, and now others, have sold many, many solid sterling bells on their trumpets and trombones, and I do like the rich tone on my inherited King Silvertone cornet.

If you really like your tone the way it is, either an exact replacement or one with a tad more copper in the mix would be just fine. If you think it's too dark or you want a different character to the tone, sterling might be just the thing.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:13 am

It also sounds like your saliva is somewhat corrosive. Maybe you should consider more frequently rinsing the instrument, and routinely coating the inside of the leadpipe with valve oil.

I'm assuming that there is nothing you can improve in the area of oral hygiene, but you would know the answer to that.

I know a few pro euph players, and I doubt that pinholes in the leadpipe are a common occurrence for them after 5 or 10 years.

Rick "brush before playing" Denney

The Big Ben · Post by **The Big Ben** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:02 am

The 'swabbing out with valve oil" sounds like a good plan, too.

Kendra · Post by **Kendra** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:13 am

I got it professionally cleaned a year ago. I usually clean it myself at least twice a year.

RyanMcGeorge · Post by **RyanMcGeorge** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:45 am

Kendra,

I have a Hirsbrunner exclusive that is about 9 years old and I also had the exact same problem after about 6 years of owning the horn. For whatever the reason it seems to be a common occurrence with Hirsbrunner euphoniums. I have 2 close collegues that also had the same exact problem. Don't think that you are a strange case or that the repair persons put holes in it. It seems to be a pattern with this specific model of Hirsbrunner euphonium.

The only thing you can really do is order a new lead pipe. When you order it, I would speak with someone at hirsbrunner directly and give them the serial number for your horn. Hirsbrunner has changed their lead pipe specs a few times over the last 10 years, you want to make sure you get the same pipe that was designed for your horn.

After I got my new lead pipe I thought my horn played better than it ever had, (that's the good news). My advice after you get your new lead pipe installed is just be really good about cleaning it out regularly. To my knowledge that is best thing you can do to extend its life.

I hope this helps,
Ryan

thedeep42 · Post by **thedeep42** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:49 am

my rudy has the same problem. it's 7 or 8 years old. in talking to a really great repairman in toronto, he said that at the stage mine's in, if i flush out the lead pipe once a month and get the snake in there, i should be able to get a number of more years out of the pipe. apparently german/swiss brass instruments are subject to this. he see's them all the time. lead pipes are the most sensitive because they're the closest to your face and they're the thinnest metal i believe. i've seen quite a few yamaha's with it as well (though more student line stuff) as said before it has to do with the quality of the alloy. it just happens in random places. spit just speeds it up. i am not certain as to the fastidiousness of care from the previous owner either. as for me right now, i'm going to go and rinse out my lead pipe

all the best though, the makers probably hear about this more than they'd like.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:20 pm

duckskiff wrote:I've often wondered about adding a *touch* of baking soda to the water during the "bathtub" flush. Has anyone tried this?

Lime and calcium deposits are alkaline, and will be untouched by baking soda. Chem cleans involve acid. Try white vinegar instead, but really rinse thoroughly. But I think prevention is better than the cure.

For example, soft drinks are highly acidic. I don't drink soda while playing for that reason, not to mention the sugar and the nasty stuff it can feed. Food particles make gunk, and gunk holds corrosive stuff against the brass even after everything else dries. A coating of valve oil in the leadpipe will keep saliva from sticking to it for quite a long time and it can just be squirted right into the receiver (that won't wash junk into the valves if you don't have junk in your mouth when you do it, if you get my drift).

Some folks also have corrosive perspiration, and also require some special treatment where there arms and hands touch the instrument. Everyone has their cross to bear.

Rick "do as I say..." Denney

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:40 pm

I resemble the remark regarding perspiration & saliva chemistry. Mine corrodes nickel. I found this out the hard way with electric guitar humbucking pickups. Chrome covers stay shiny for me. But when I tried a pair of "vintage" style pickups with nickel covers, after only a few gigs they corroded and scaled so badly I had go back to the pickups with the chrome covers. So you will not see me with a nickel or nickel silver leadpipe. Fortunately, over the years I've had no trouble with most conventional piston valves, whatever the instrument I was playing at the time, because of the valve oil providing a protective coating.

Another reason I'm looking forward to bronze rotors.

The Big Ben · Post by **The Big Ben** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:50 pm

One more comment and then I'll go back to sitting on my stool in the corner and wearing my hat that says "Trumpet Doofus":

What about some sort of coating on the inside of the pipe- epoxy or something? Epoxy coatings on the outside do/do not affect the sound depending on who you talk to so why wouldn't an epoxy coating on the inside to protect the metal from rot work? Judging by comments made in another thread, changing out a leadpipe is about a $500-600 concern including parts. That's quite a bit to have to do every five or so years.

Jeff "Buys his round so he doesn't get booted out of here" Benedict

tubatooter1940 · Post by **tubatooter1940** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 3:16 pm

If you are broke you might use silicone caulk. A tube is a few bucks so you can afford to dig it out and recaulk in a few months. Try not to plug the tube with it. Duct tape can be painted, temporarily.

MaryAnn · Post by **MaryAnn** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 3:39 pm

well you all know how I love to throw curves into the mix.

Saliva is supposed to be slightly alkaline. If your saliva is acidic, likely the rest of you is also acidic, which leads to, among other things, osteoporosis. If you eat a highly acidic diet (high in animal products, sugar) then your body will take calcium from wherever it can find it (your bones) in order to keep the blood pH in the very narrow alkaline range it has to be in for health.

Changing your diet to have a whole lot more vegetables in it and a lot less animal products, would give your system a break in working so hard to maintain proper blood pH, and your leadpipes will last longer, even the ones that aren't the best metal to start with.

MA, who is used to these comments being ignored, but who does not get "green hands" either

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:21 pm

The Big Ben wrote:One more comment and then I'll go back to sitting on my stool in the corner and wearing my hat that says "Trumpet Doofus":

What about some sort of coating on the inside of the pipe- epoxy or something?

I've thought a bit about this and have come to the conclusion that there is very little that can be done to prevent 'red rot' other than to avoid getting the inside of the leadpipe dirty in the first place. That sounds a little dumb, but... this is one of those things that you don't know you have a problem with until you see spots begin to develop on the outside of the leadpipe. Then... it's too late. The inside of the leadpipe is a very tough environment. I don't know of any conventional coatings that will hold up to the rigors of a 98 degree F - 100 percent humidity - acidic environment. To say nothing of the other chemistry going on. I work on lots of horns and I truly don't know why the insides of some horns look as though they just left the factory and other horns, less than a year old, look like the city dump!

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:43 pm

You haven't lived until you've had one (or rather the layers of gunk inside it) catch on fire when you put the torch to it to remove it.

I think nickel-silver leadpipes are a heckuva good idea and I don't understand why all manufacturers don't use them.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:50 pm

Chuck(G) wrote:You haven't lived until you've had one (or rather the layers of gunk inside it) catch on fire when you put the torch to it to remove it.

Chuck(G) wrote:I think nickel-silver leadpipes are a heckuva good idea and I don't understand why all manufacturers don't use them.

I agree, nickel-silver is a good material, but just like everything else, there should be options. As others get red rot, as I stated above, I corrode nickel.

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:18 pm

I think if you have a new leadpipe made from a different material then you can expect it to make a difference to the sound. My new Melton Eb has two detachable leadpipes at my request. One is gold brass and the other yellow brass. The difference in sound is quite dramatic. The gold brass is mellower and richer sounding. I would therefore reason that nickel silver being a harder metal would make the sound brighter.

Jonathan "who agrees that all top line tubas should have removable leadpipes."

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:19 pm

the elephant wrote:Uh, tuba and euph manufacturers? ARE YOU LISTENING TO THIS? These horns cost a lot of money and these sorts of things ought to be standard equipment as a matter of course.

It seems that someone is, but not the usual gang. That inexpensive Allora BBb sold by WWBW has a red brass leadpipe as well as using red brass for the "sidewinder" crook before the tuning slide.

Hello USA, Germany and Switzerland? Is anyone out there?

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:04 pm

Now so does the top line Jupiter, if "top line" and "Jupiter" said in the same sentence is not an oxymoron.

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:32 pm

I would think that ANY leadpipe would last AT LEAST five years regardless of how badly a horn is cared for. Lessee.... a chem-clean once a year for $100 or a leadpipe every five years for $300. Depending on the player's chemistry, a chem-clean might not be any help at all.

FWIW... I see lots more perforated leadpipes on trumpets!

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:52 pm

the elephant wrote:My 1958 Alexander has its original leadpipe and no red rot. Go figure.

I have some horns that are over 100 years old that have no signs of rot. One of them has been played to the point that the valves have .010" of slop and absolutely no silver finish left! It's just a player/chemistry thing. Maybe some folks would just be better off playing bagpipes