stupid out of tune sousaphones

[Leland]

Try playing the F's as 1-3 instead. You could get away with the open fingering in quicker passages, but if it sustains long enough, intonation is obviously more important.

The last 20-series Conn I fooled around with (20J 3-valve upright) was just as out of tune on the F, and that's how we worked around it.

[Biggs]

The *scale sucks on 20K sousaphones...and the sound (compared to the "cheap" Elkhart 14K model) is kinda woofy,

but band directors, sousaphone operators, and consensus sousatologists seem to think they are GREAT.

But in satin silver they're just so darn pretty...

I play a 20K. It's not great. Basically, I jam my slides all the way in and blow my brains out to round that E up to an F.

[MileMarkerZero]

This may be a little elementary, but are you sure the souzys all have the right necks and bits? Needs to be a Conn neck with 2 Conn bits. I have seen people put a King neck in to a Conn Souzy with one Yamahaha bit. It'll play, but the tuning is gawd-awful. How old are the horns? Older school horns almost invariably have air leaks, which will whack the tuning. Also a foreign object in the bottom bow could cause problems.

Basically, make sure all the horns are in the proper playing condition. Also, try some different mouthpieces. Might find on the works better than others.

[Navytubaman]

From my point of view and experience playing these horns the pitch is easily blown up or down dramatically by the player. This is both a good thing and a bad thing. Overblowing will wreak havoc on pitch as will someone who isn't putting any air in the horn.

In order to play well as a section you must use your ears to put the pitch where it should belong. Try pitch matching at medium dynamics to find a stable pitch structure and develop listening skills. In a situation as yours, people tend to think volume and not quality. As a section if you will put out clean, clear, concise notes you will sound very solid as a section.

Now, with that being said. If you are still getting out a 1/2 step consistantly and air flow is not the problem, then we need to look a horn problem.

Do you have the right bits? Too many bits? Wrong leadpipes? What about using only 1 bit, does that solve the problem? What mouthpieces are you using, does changing make a difference? - A conn Helleberg 7B will be different than a Bach 18, etc.

This is not a crisis, in my experience something listed above will greatly solve your problem. Most students do not have a true command of airflow and the understanding of how to use it to control pitch.

I didn't even get into open/closed mouth problems and how they relate to pitch. That is also a factor but hard to diagnose over the internet.

Do I like these horns? No, we played King's from the 60's for many years here and they played great. Now we use Yamaha and Conn and I don't like either one, but can still play them in tune using my ears and not trying to overpower the instrument.


Kelly Diamond

[iiipopes]

It's a shame you are beleaguered with such, when the 14k and its cousins are such good horns.

I agree with the above post about checking for obstructions, leaks, spit keys, valve maintenance, including something so basic as making sure the right valves are in the right valve casings (!), condition of the gooseneck and the correct two bits for each instrument.

Now, if I could only get a 20k valveset on a 14k bugle with a 24 inch bell....

[danB]

I would listen to and try everything that Mr. Diamond has to say. Those guys in that section know how to make those things sound good and know what their talking about. I like this thread because it let's me point out how hard a job it is to play these things on a daily basis with the same artistry that brought these guys into the service bands. The DC bands are not all glamour and fame. For this I HIGHLY respect what our sousaphone brethren do and highly respect the guys that stick it out and make a career in those bands.

Now back to sousaphone answers.......

d

[pulseczar]

I find that stuffing the sousaphone with random things like drill paper or stuffed animals drastically alters intonation.

[Steve Marcus]

The *scale sucks on 20K sousaphones...and the sound (compared to the "cheap" Elkhart 14K model) is kinda woofy

Strictly from a musical point of view (intonation, tone quality, etc.), not weight or structural stability, what is the best sousaphone model of any brand ever produced?

(Bloke will probably chime in with the 14K...)

[Rick Denney]

The open third partial on 20K's and 20J's are notoriously flat. Try tuning to a better note, such as Bb on the staff.

Legend has it that Conn did scientific testing and found that the flattened third partial bought them an in-tune fifth partial, and it's easy to fix the flat F by playing it 1-3. It's not so easy to fix a flat C on the fifth partial. I routinely used the 1-3 fingering for the third-partial F on my 20J, but it's one reason I didn't keep it. My Holton's third partial is in tune, but the fifth partial is predictably flat.

I would also suggest intonation training, such as Tune-Up Systems or something similar. Learn what it sounds like to be in tune, and then work back to that F. If the head has the correct F in it, it will be a lot easier. Also, those programs will teach you want intervals sound like, so that you'll know how to place the pitch of the F in the tune. That will be far more useful now and in the future than straining to get a needle to point up.

Rick "who needs to take his own advice" Denney

[Rick Denney]

Strictly from a musical point of view (intonation, tone quality, etc.), not weight or structural stability, what is the best sousaphone model of any brand ever produced?

(Bloke will probably chime in with the 14K...)

So will I. The 14K avoids the typical sousaphone woofiness, and sounds like a good tuba. Being as light as the lighter fiberglass sousaphones, t can also be played without whole-body tension just to hold it up. The scale on mine is excellent, considering its three valves. False tones are good. It only looks small when compared side-by-side to a 6/4 sousaphone like the 20K.

The Martin Handcraft is pretty nice, too. It's also more of a 4/4 than a 6/4 sousaphone.

Rick "whose 14K is excellent in all categories except appearance" Denney

[MartyNeilan]

Legend has it that Conn did scientific testing and found that the flattened third partial bought them an in-tune fifth partial, and it's easy to fix the flat F by playing it 1-3. It's not so easy to fix a flat C on the fifth partial.

My MW2155r has the same tendencies. It is the first CC tuba I have had that I could play an open 5th partial E and also not have to worry about pushing in for the D below it (or using 4 as the alternate). The third partial is another matter entirely...
Just depends on what tradeoff you want.
There was a prominent brand that once claimed all the open notes were perfectly in tune. (Until you pressed down any valves)

[iiipopes]

Bloke is not the only one who will go for the 14k, and for me especially the ones with a 24 inch bell.

[The Big Ben]

While in the Army Band of New York City I played Beelzebub on a King sousaphone live on CNN sometime in the winter of 1987-88 for some Sousa tribute in Manhattan. I had to play it in the freezing cold and snow, which really sucked.

That King played great, even in the rotten weather.

When I got back to my room in the barracks there was a message on my machine from my mom in San Antonio. She was home sick and had seen me playing my Sousaphone with my Army Band on CNN live! Pretty cool!

There's a great memory!

[iiipopes]

I will attest to the general durability of the pre-cyborg King souzys. Speaking of rotten weather: as a freshman in high school we marched 4 souzys. One sub-freezing morning before school extra practice for contest our valves froze. But here's the catch: mine froze open. Another guy with 1st down, another with...you get the picture. So the four of us looked at each other, shrugged our shoulders and kept playing the notes we could. We completely covered the parts for rehearsal.

Back inside, warming up, we 'fessed up to our director. At first he was dismayed that he wasn't getting as much bass on the field as he wanted. But after we explained what happened, he complimented us on our best efforts to keep everything going as well as we did. He made sure we all had good oil after that.

[Chuck(G)]

I generally don't do sousaphone, but I've always really liked the old King "Cleveland" models. Very nice players without being too bulky.

[averagejoe]

I would be interested in hearing peoples opinions about if using a contra can solve a lot of mushy sousaphone problems. (While I believe that a great player will still sound great on a sousaphone)

[Rick Denney]

I would be interested in hearing peoples opinions about if using a contra can solve a lot of mushy sousaphone problems. (While I believe that a great player will still sound great on a sousaphone)

I'm back to that whole-body tension thing. Tension is bad, and the big contras seem to require a lot of it just to remain upright. There are wonderful players who play the stuffing out of their contras, just as great players will have no trouble demonstrating their skill on a sousaphone. But badly played contras can sound pretty horrible, too. The cases I've heard may be horror in the paint-peeling sense rather than woofy mush sense, but still worthy of the R rating.

Rick "speaking as a listener not a practitioner" Denney

[tubatom91]

I have the same problems with our 50 year old conn prototype fiberglass sousa's all I can say is lip up as much as possible and "blow sharp". (Yamaha silvers are no better!!)

[Rick Denney]

Commenting on Holton 345 BBb concert tubas: I've found that some/many of the BBb versions play considerably better in tune than the CC (factory and/or hacksaw) versions. The lower F is useable on many of the 345 BBb tubas, but the best I've ever encountered on these is c. 10-15 c. flat on the lower F/E (again: just within what could be considered "useable" limits). Fortunately the pitch is flexible enough that (at least at mf and above) the 3rd partial F/E on many BB-345 tubas can be pushed up where it belongs. These tubas also seem to mostly play the "upper" (6th partial) F/E about the same amount sharp. I believe that a main slide thumb trigger (rather than an un-needed 5th valve) would be of great benefit on the BBb Holton 345.

This is good stuff.

The D on the staff runs the same amount flat on my Holton as it does on the Miraphone 186. I also struggle a little with a flat fourth-partial Bb, but I have that problem on all my tubas and I think I just hear that note wrong for some reason. It's fine if I run the main slide home, when it normally sits out about 3/4" or a bit less. Tuning stick would solve that problem completely, but I don't find it to get in the way in practice. And it should be said that the group I'm tends sharp, like all community groups.

But I'm right there with you on the 6-8th partials. They seem quite sharp on my 345. I am very rarely asked to play anything up there, but I've used some interesting alternative fingerings. For example, I routinely play the eighth-partial F#/Gb using the first valve on the seventh partial. That partial is theoretically very flat, but it's right on for me on that note. And I play the G using the second valve. That has made it dramatically easier to avoid clamming those notes. I hit them every time in the practice room, but with the group I'm trying to match pitch and then clam the note when using the conventional fingerings. The F doesn't usually pose a problem, but there are lots of alternate fingerings for that one.

Again, though, I have exactly the same tendency on the York Master on the same notes, so I hesitate to blame the tuba.

I usually play the fifth partial using the normal fingerings and have no trouble being in tune. But when I sit in front of a tuner, they come out flat. Ditto for the 186, though on the 186 I'll push in the first valve slide for the C.

With a first valve shortened about 1.5 inches (easy) and a tuning stick for the main slide similar to the one on the plastic Martin (also easy), these quirks would be even easier to manage. But I'm managing them just fine with the alternate fingerings. The 20J had major pitch problems right in the middle of the band register which proved to be too much of a hassle.

But I need to do a valve job on the Holton before making any real modifications.

I'm not worried about this lessening the value of my Holton. It's not for sale. But those are pretty minor adjustments in the scheme of things--less than what I faced with the York Master and a little more to deal with than the 186. And dead easy compared to remembering the differences in the low-register fingerings of my two F tubas. I expect it's normal-to-good intonation for big tubas, even compared with seriously expensive stuff.

And it has...THE SOUND.

Rick "still having too much fun playing it to give it up for the needed overhaul" Denney

[Leland]

I really don't like pushing pitches around with the face; I don't like what usually happens with tone color and (especially) accuracy.

I would be interested in hearing peoples opinions about if using a contra can solve a lot of mushy sousaphone problems. (While I believe that a great player will still sound great on a sousaphone)

A marching tuba, depending on the model, can run the risk of sounding too direct. It's definitely a different character of sound, and to my ears, a decently-played contra line blends better with the other bell-front brasses than sousaphones do. Then again, contras aren't going to get that all-encompassing wash of sound that sousaphones do so well. Plus, swinging back & forth during the fight song is NOT something for contra-style tubas. You gotta do the swing (it's in the rules of marching band!), and nothing makes the swing look cooler than a sousaphone section.

Back inside, warming up, we 'fessed up to our director. At first he was dismayed that he wasn't getting as much bass on the field as he wanted. But after we explained what happened, he complimented us on our best efforts to keep everything going as well as we did. He made sure we all had good oil after that.

When you say "good oil", did he do anything "special" to it?