tu-tu-ku vs. tu-ku-tu

Sean Greene · Post by **Sean Greene** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:08 am

Personally, I like to think of doe-go-doe or "diggida" because the softer articulation (d instead of t) allows me greater potential velocity with the same clarity.

AndyCat · Post by **AndyCat** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:13 am

Depends what you're playing. Both should be in your toolbox!

MartyNeilan · Post by **MartyNeilan** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:16 am

On low brass, I would stay away from any kind of "tu" if pronounced "two" - that vowel sound tends to close off the throat and raise the tongue up in your mouth.
I would suggest a "toe-koe" (pronounced oh) or a "tah-kah" or a hybrid of the two, as it will help open up the throat and oral cavity more. Think of a "hot potato" in your mouth.
This probably did not answer your specific question, but I hope it helps your playing.

Captain Sousie · Post by **Captain Sousie** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:59 am

How about the alternating doh-goh-doh-with-goh-doh-goh so that it is just an extension of double tonguing? That has worked best for me but I do use all three methods when necessary.

Sou

Tubaguy56 · Post by **Tubaguy56** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:03 pm

I have all three methods in my toolbox (d-g-d, d-d-g, d-g-d-g-d-g) and d-d-g is the surefire one for me, it just seems to work, thats just me tho.

euphdude · Post by **euphdude** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:22 pm

TubaBluba, I'm in exactly the same boat with you. I taught myself the ta-ka-ta style of triple tonguing. In short bursts, it works perfectly fine for me. I can't sustain it for very long using this technique, but for the mostly minor demands of the music I play, it is good enough. I probably should work on the ta-ta-ka technique at some point, but as of now, I'm really busy doing other stuff and I don't really need it.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:27 pm

It's mostly a mental thing, since, if you're triple-tonguing more than one iteration, they're the same. Consider:

TTK:
TTKTTKTTKTTKTTKTTKTTK

TKT:
TKTTKTTKTTKTTKTTKTTKT

Many people find that they can go faster if they think TTK. Regardless, the key thing is to be able to multiple tongue evenly and smoothly.

djwesp · Post by **djwesp** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:56 pm

When it comes to multiple tonguing, I will do whatever it takes to facilitate the part.

Double, triple, which version of triple? Doesn't matter, practice them all...

A personal frustration for me is that i do not think that Triple and Double tonguing are a replacement for single tonguing. Too often you see people double tonguing eigth/sixteenth/sixteenth at a slow tempo and triplets triple tongued well under 120. It is to be used as a tool only when needed.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:04 pm

Scooby Tuba wrote:C(G) can probably corroborate as he lives with one, too, but in general fluters use the TKTTKTTKT way and most brass players use TTKTTKTTK.

Yup, she says that's exactly what she uses. Of course, a discussion of triple-tonguing with one more woodwind players gets the eyes-rolling expression when you use the words " tuba" and "triple tonguging" in the same sentence.

Sort of the same expression you'd get if you were discussing how fast you can make your tricycle go in the presence of a bunch of Formula One drivers...

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:18 pm

tubop wrote:even pro trumpet players lately are beginning to abandon Tu for Du or Doe... reference trumpetherald.com... in my experience it is impossible for me to articulate clearly by bringing my tongue that far forward. i use di-gi-duh, di-gi-di-gi-duh and etc.

There has been discussion in the past that J.B. Arban used the French articulation of "t", which isn't identical to the English one.

I don't know where that led eventually...

eupher61 · Post by **eupher61** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:53 pm

I've never been able to use the TKT TKT pattern...only TTK. Well, TKT KTK works, but it didn't have the clarity I like, esp since I didn't work on it that long.
I lost my ability to double tongue the "Carnival" variation the summer before I first performed it. Wierd. I can double tongue anything else, just not that specific pattern in that specific piece. Obviously, a head thing.

Tubaguy56 · Post by **Tubaguy56** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:06 pm

There has been discussion in the past that J.B. Arban used the French articulation of "t", which isn't identical to the English one.

I don't know where that led eventually...

One must also look at the french pronouciation of tu and ku. An old teacher of mine went to a Jens Linderman masterclass and claimed that the pronounciation was different, like halfway between Tuh and Too (Sorry I'm not sure how I would notate that pronounciation). It helped my triple and double tounging tremendously[/quote]

corbasse · Post by **corbasse** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:05 pm

Tubaguy56 wrote:One must also look at the french pronouciation of tu and ku. An old teacher of mine went to a Jens Linderman masterclass and claimed that the pronounciation was different, like halfway between Tuh and Too (Sorry I'm not sure how I would notate that pronounciation).

I don't believe that vowel exists in English. The closest I can think of is the start of the vowel in fuel or chew, without all the horrible diphtongueing you Americans are so prone to

Notice that this vowel also produces a slight puckering of the lips.

Adam C. · Post by **Adam C.** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:26 pm

Linguistically, the only difference in the consonants T and D (and K and G) is the vibration of the vocal cords before releasing the tongue. The tongue ideally stays in the same place and does the same thing with those consonants, but with D and G air is moving to make the vocalization before the tongue actually releases.

Keeping the air moving while multiple tonguing is a great idea, so I think that's the reason more people have success while thinking D and G. Our body is already used to moving air during those syllables; not so with T and K's.

MaryAnn · Post by **MaryAnn** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:47 pm

Linguistically interesting.

When I sit here and make a K and G sound, I use more air to get the aspiration on the K, that is, I "blow harder." Hence I would expect the G sound to make it easier to control the tone. With the D and the T, I definitely use more "meat" of the tip of my tongue on the roof of my mouth for the D sound; with the T sound it is only the very tip of the tongue, which I also would expect to create some differences in how a tuba would respond, between the two of them.

MA

SRanney · Post by **SRanney** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:33 pm

Sean Greene wrote:Personally, I like to think..."diggida" because the softer articulation...

Diggida-dig it, man.

When I have the urge to triple tongue these days, that's what I do.

SR

skinnytuba · Post by **skinnytuba** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:00 pm

I would suggest experimenting between the du/tu sounds, as well as the gu/ku sounds to find which one works best for you. Everyone's mouth is set up differently, hence no set vowel works for all of us.

I would avoid the "toh" sound, though, especially if you are a vocalist and know how to make a true vocalised closed "o" sound (as in the word "home"). Making a true vocalised "o" actually compresses the pharynx, and restricts airflow. Working on saying a pure "u" (pronounced "oo") vowel while playing has greatly improved my sound, and you should find the best open vowel for yourself. This is also another great reason to learn to sing! If you need help with your vowels, find a vocalist or a good vocal teacher and they can help you. A good vowel will greatly improve your sound!