Metalurgy and Allergic Reactions.

[oldbandnerd]

Yes I have problems . Makes my lips stay raw all the time . I use a stainless steele mouthpiece now .I still have some problems but using a good lip balm takes care of that . I reccomend Chop Saver, Burts Beez wax , Blistex DCT .

[Tubaguy56]

hmmm, just on the upper lip? I have issues with that sometime, but I believe it to be because my upper lip is significantly larger than my lower I push on the upper side to compensate.

[NickJones]

If your mouthpiece has a crack or a scuff , that can irritate the lip , also if your using a raw brass instrument ( no plating laq or silver plate ) or if you have some plating missing near your valve block , that can affect you , In my own experience , I had to play an old boosey and hawkes laq Eb tuba ( pics of it on the Bierkellerbrass website) www.bierkellerbrass.co.uk , anyway I digress..the laq is really worn and after a two hour rehersal , my lip has swollen and I this was due to the raw brass..as silver is inert ( it should not react with your skin) would make sure your instrument is not causing the problem.

[Rick Denney]

...as silver is inert...

Nick, silver isn't that inert, or it wouldn't tarnish so easily. That's just silver reacting with stuff floating in the air, and creating oxides.

Brass can be mildly poisonous, however, and a mouthpiece with brass showing should not be played.

Some people do indeed have allergies to silver. Here are the options, as I know them:

1. Gold-plating. This is my preference, but more because of the feel. Proper gold plasting goes over silver plating, so the silver will come through when the gold wears down, as it surely will eventually. But then you have have the mouthpiece replated.

2. Stainless steel, which is more inert than silver by a long shot. It also has a harder surface and can be cleaned more aggressively.

3. Lexan, though the feel of it is rougher to me. Doug Elliott makes lexan rims for his line of mouthpieces. And then there are the Kellys.

4. Titanium. Titanium forms a thin oxide layer almost immediately, and that layer is very hard and impermeable, preventing most additional reaction. Thus, it's quite inert, even moreso than stainless steel. But it's hard to machine and expensive. G&W have titanium versions of their mouthpieces, in addition to their stainless steel line.

Rick "who has no allergies to brass except the green stains" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

Rick forgot TiN PVD-coated stainless. Far more inert than even stainless and much harder and scratch-resistant. This is the stuff applied over steel where resistance to salt spray and other harsh conditions is needed. This is the "gold" in gold-finish bathroom fixtures and door hardware.

It's also used for cutting edges on tools and even in surgical implants. Great stuff.

Drop a note to Dave Houser. I suspect that he can supply you with a PVD-coated stainless rim on your current brass mouthpiece for less than you might think.

That's what I'm doing.

[iiipopes]

My son is in the same predicament. Right now, for him to buzz on until he gets old enough for school band, I have a DEG nylon mouthpieces for him. But the nylon bowl/nickel shank can have a "whang" in the tone. We'll see how he gets along in years to come.

Kelly is a great alternative, being lexan, and I use a Kelly 18 outdoors exclusively. If it seems to not hold the loudest dynamic levels, just put a piece of golfer's tape (the kind used to weight golf clubs) around the shank at the bowl/throat. It works very well.

Other companies also make lexan rims for their conventional mouthpieces, but usually only on special order.

Since I prefer conventional silver-plated brass mouthpieces, I have no experience with the titanium plate.

[tubatooter1940]

If I can restrain my blatweasel self from blatting and play mezzo-forte while miked thrugh our p.a. system, I can get thrugh a evening of music with little or no damage to the lips. This weekend, however, I went out of my way to rip it.
I'll never forget a jazz funeral in New Orleans in January 2006. The tuba player blew an old Conn sousie with patches we were convinced were over bullet holes. He kept it simple, but from his first note, the blast from him could be heard six blocks out ahead of him and three blocks behind. His one and three cadence reverberated down the brick streets and off the brick and masonry buildings. Biggest sound I ever heard unamplified.
This weekend we ran the sound stage for the Fairhope arts and crafts festival. We played an hour of each of the three days and ran sound for everybody else. Sunday morning, the streets were not so packed with people and I noticed that my tuba through six 300 watt Eon speakers was whipping through the downtown black top streets and masonry buildings like that cool guy I heard in New Orleans. I played a Gibson 330 guitar for 25 years and always liked it's natural distortion. My new G&W Diablo mouthpiece was giving me a similar tuba effect if I poured the air to it.
My friends said they heard the tuba distinctly at the edge of town and it sounded great.
I know, I overdid it again but that was fun - almost worth the nine new zits.

[thedeep42]

just a note on synthetic rims...

(Bob tucci also does synthetic rims or mouthpieces on request for any of his models, he uses a different synthetic than lexan and it's not so grippy)

for me, i find that on low notes where i have to get a ton of lip into the mouthpiece, my lower lip goes past the synthetic rim line, pretty well negating the whole point of it. I 'solved' this by coating the inside of the cup with clear nail polish. it's a lot better and sounds great. but let it sit somewhere warm for a couple of days or you'll feel gross because it hasn't set fully.

I have not found a metal mouthpiece I'm not allergic to.

There are also a number of coating options, i had a silver mouthpiece powder coated, but after a week of playing, it still reacted. Thinking about different kinds of enamel of a ceramic type of finish...

I have found Kelly mouthpieces to do pretty much all I need for now. Most of the time I don't need to blow my brains out the bell, so i'm fine, and a bit of tape around the shank helps it fit my lead pipe a bit more.

as for comfort with kellys... I find when clean shaven that they grip my face way too much, so i keep a tiny bit of bristle usually at least (blond so its easy), and put some vaseline around the rim when I play. Suits me grand. now i can't stand the feel of metal mouthpieces on my face...strange.

I keep seeing more of this allergy stuff, it seems to be more common. i'd really like to see some more of the top manufacturers experimenting with some "out of box" ideas for solving these issues. i have a sneaking suspicion there will be an increase in demand for something super comfortable that is as near to completely neutral a material as possible. i bet it can be done cheaply too. i look forward to seeing this progress.

[Rick Denney]

Rick forgot TiN PVD-coated stainless.

I didn't realize that was an option.

Rick "who learns something new every day" Denney

[Donn]

I'll start with a titanium coated LM-7 by Loud and practice my usual 8 hours for two days. I'll then allow a day of rest. I'll next try the standard Loud LM-7 in stainless for 2 days to test for a reaction. Then Rest. Then I will use my Stofer Geib for two days. Rest. Then a standard Conn Helleberg for 2 days. Perhaps we can prove in this mannner that Titanium is Hypo-Allergenic and that Silver is deffinitely not. I hope to also prove that silver is the culprit and not the angle of the rim. I've ruled gold out as nickle still leeches through the plating. I have exceptionally sensitive skin so maybe this will be an accurate test.

Have any thoughts? Please respond!

Sounds reasonable, if you can really stay away from the tuba for two days and you expect symptoms to appear within that time.

If there's any chance that you could get feedback on your sound between the two Louds, that might be of interest. I mean, if there is actually a difference that an observer could perceive. For that, you'd need to get into a large and not too live space (outdoors?) and play both for your observer - so probably after you have recovered from the medical experiments. Don't hold back, loud playing may be where the difference shows up.

[iiipopes]

Is there an echo in here?