Female versus male teachers

[windshieldbug]

muf,
If you've been a TubeNet member for three years, then you will understand when I say that my reaction to this is:

RAW BRASS ROTARY CC!

[pwhitaker]

This debate/discussion has also been encountered in the worlds of pure mathematics (virtually no famous female mathematicians) and tournament chess (very few female Grandmasters.) At least this community is in good company.

[Rick Denney]

This reminds me of the seemingly constant Vienna Philharmonic debate.

Hence my comment about violin players (even though the Vienna debate centered, as I recall, on a trombone player). There are sections where women are well represented in the middle ranks but are much more rarely found in the principal chair. And there are orchestras that clearly discriminate on the basis of sex. There are reasons to discuss these things in the context of some of those groups, especially those in the Olde Worlde with more of a "sense of tradition" governing their attitudes.

That discussion you mentioned revealed all sides of the debate, with the consensus strongly biased towards the abilities of the performer and not the sex. It refutes rather than demonstrates what has been accused here.

Rick "tired of people with chips on their shoulders" Denney

[Rick Denney]

I am sorry that my question has raised so many concerns.

If anything, your explanation bothers me more than the original post, because it demonstrates how willing you are to use smooth words to cover up deep resentment. If you have an opinion, state it. Provide supporting evidence. After all, maybe we are too biased to see what is apparently clear to you. Being mealy mouthed will accomplish nothing.

I really think that your strategy is to kick the anthill and then complain about how aggressive ants are when they start stinging you. I've seen responses like this one in many debates, where the stingee feigns remorse. It's a common strategy in modern polemics, and I hear it all the time. But it's rare on Tubenet

Rick "not buying it" Denney

[Rick Denney]

There are extremes in almost every belief system. She is an extreme. Most are not, therefore, she is not "typical". Nice generalization.

Maybe she's a typical extremist. It all depends on where you draw the "feminist" boundary.

(I find the views expressed--of women not getting fair reviews or consideration on the basis of their sex--to be typical among the women I know well, though most would not at all describe themselves as extremists, or even feminists. But they are not expressing their opinion about Tubenet.)

Rick "thinking some extremists dream of being typical" Denney

[Uncle Buck]

I wonder if Ms. Fava initiated this thread to collect responses from this group as research for a paper she intends to write. ("Sexism in a semi-anonymous Internet chat: The REAL attitudes revealed . . .")

[FarahShazam]

There are extremes in almost every belief system. She is an extreme. Most are not, therefore, she is not "typical". Nice generalization.

Maybe she's a typical extremist. It all depends on where you draw the "feminist" boundary.

(I find the views expressed--of women not getting fair reviews or consideration on the basis of their sex--to be typical among the women I know well, though most would not at all describe themselves as extremists, or even feminists. But they are not expressing their opinion about Tubenet.)

Rick "thinking some extremists dream of being typical" Denney

I don't think there is anything typical about being extreme. The definition of extreme is "of a character or kind farthest removed from the ordinary or average".

I have never, ever felt bias in regards to my gender. The kind of people who would base this opinion on me wouldn't get my attention or respect. So, I have never felt the bias. It exists, I am sure, but it is one of the few things that get to me. I'm thankful of that--I have enough things to worry about.

[windshieldbug]

(These must be pictures of lady tuba players/professors/soloists...)!

I hear AngelEyez teaches a MONSTER music history class!

[Uncle Buck]

A clarification and an apology.

. . .

I was more thinking about other good performers and teachers such as Gail Robertson, Deanna Swoboda, Stacey Baker, Melissa Williams or Kathy Brantigan to mention a few, who are rarely if at all mentioned. I was interested in understanding why there seems to be a general "discomfort" to talk about female teachers, or at least that is what transpires from many postings on this topic, while in reality - to the best of my knowledge - these women have good and male-crowded studios.

My wife often accusses me of not knowing how to really apologize - she tells me that my apologies often sound like "I'm sorry you are such a jerk, and I still think I'm right."

To list a few names of women who have successful careers and studios and ask why they are not mentioned more frequently on this board (with the claim that there appears to be a "discomfort" with discussing them) is quite a bold question/assertion. I don't think the question even deserves to be asked without a little more concrete analysis of how often various professionals are "mentioned" on this forum.

In other words, do your homework before making the accusation/question. Create a exhaustive list of all professional tuba and euphonium performers and teachers, and conduct searches of all TubeNet posts to track how often each one has been "mentioned" (either by name, performing group, or college/university). Then track any trends in those numbers.

At that point, if the numbers show a gender disparity, it would be appropriate to "ask" ("accuse") this forum why there is such a "discomfort" with discussing these individuals.

[lgb&dtuba]

I was interested in understanding why there seems to be a general "discomfort" to talk about female teachers, or at least that is what transpires from many postings on this topic,

Exactly how do you make a leap from you haven't seen such postings to there's a

general discomfort

here?

Let's test the waters.

Has anyone here studied with any of the teachers mentioned?

Gail Robertson, Deanna Swoboda, Stacey Baker, Melissa Williams or Kathy Brantigan

If so, where do they teach?

I disqualify myself from any comments on those teachers since I haven't studied with them and haven't heard of them. Of course, I'm an old f@rt and haven't heard of any of the current crop of men teachers either. Since I'm not looking for a teacher and have never made a post about any tuba teacher I guess I must have a discomfort level with all teachers.

[pwhitaker]

A clarification and an apology.
My original question had really nothing to do with a "sexist agenda." ...

Main Entry: sex·ism
Pronunciation: 'sek-"si-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: 1sex + -ism (as in racism)
1 : prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women
2 : behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex
- sex·ist /'sek-sist/ adjective or noun

.... Hmm

[ZNC Dandy]

This reminds me of the seemingly constant Vienna Philharmonic debate.

Hence my comment about violin players (even though the Vienna debate centered, as I recall, on a trombone player). There are sections where women are well represented in the middle ranks but are much more rarely found in the principal chair. And there are orchestras that clearly discriminate on the basis of sex. There are reasons to discuss these things in the context of some of those groups, especially those in the Olde Worlde with more of a "sense of tradition" governing their attitudes.

That discussion you mentioned revealed all sides of the debate, with the consensus strongly biased towards the abilities of the performer and not the sex. It refutes rather than demonstrates what has been accused here.

Rick "tired of people with chips on their shoulders" Denney

I hope you are not referring to me? I'm in the same camp as you are. People need to stand on their own two feet and stop looking for someone to blame when life is seemingly unfair towards them. I should have done a better job clarifying my position. I should have said, "this is as ridiculous as the seeminly constant Vienna Philharmonic debate, people just need to drop it. Incidentally, I think that orchestra you were referring to was the Munich Philharmonic and the trombonist in question was Abbie Conant.