Allergies & Loud Review

[Chuck(G)]

I've got a couple of mouthpieces sent in to Dave Houser for addition of a TiN (titanium nitride) coated stainless screw rim. One mouthpiece is his work, the other isn't.

At least for me, the price was less than I expected. I'll let the list know how they stand up after I get them back.

Dave mentioned to me that PVD TiN is incredibly tough--standing up even to scrubbing with steel wool.

You can get the coating in various colors, but I'm settling for the gold color. There's a very neat-looking black as well as a silver-colored (zirconium nitride) available.

[yohan]

... two components of metal commonly associated with allergies in musicians. One to Zinc, which is a component of brass and nickel which is found in both brass and silver....

This is my understanding of that particular passage:

... two components of metal commonly associated with allergies in musicians. [Number] One [is] (to) Zinc, which is a component of brass and [the other one is] nickel which is found in both brass and silver....

[Chuck(G)]

Copper and zinc = brass
more zinc = yellow brass
less zinc = gold brass
much less zinc = rose or red brass

Copper and nickel = nickel silver

Copper and tin = bronze

Wade, not to be argumentative, but nickel-silver usually contains almost as much zinc as it does nickel. See, for example:

http://pages.zoom.co.uk/leveridge/nickel1.html

[iiipopes]

The only time brass has anything besides copper and zinc in it is if its century old "low" brass, or something recycled that may have trace impurities in it from the limitations of the refining or recycling process.

As elephant said, the elemental metals primarily involved:
copper
zinc
nickel
tin
lead (in the solder, gradually being phased out)
silver (plate)
gold (plate)

Occasionally, again because of impurities in the refining process, there may be trace amounts of phosphorus, carbon, iron, silicon, cadmium, antimony, cobalt, mercury (but probably not, as it would boil off), selenium, and perhaps others.

[SplatterTone]

Still, the best mouthpieces are made of this:
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Tritanium

[Chuck(G)]

Was the rest more of less accurate for what we are discussing here?

I was "told" that nickel silver was impervious to red rot because the metal contained no zinc to leach out. How does it stop de-zincification, then? Is that a chemical quality of the nickel component?

From what little I know, all alloys where the primary metal is copper are "bronzes". Brass is a bronze. (Did you know that a Spanish term for "brass quintet" is "quinteto de bronces"?) Some things are called bronze that contain no tin; e.g. the "aluminum bronzes". I think the term "brass implies nothing more than the two primary metals are copper and zinc.

Here's a neat "show and tell" about the bewildering variety of copper alloys:

http://www.metalreference.com/Forms_Copper_Alloy.html

[Donn]

I also have the titanium one and I use it for a softer, fuzzier sound when I'd like that.

Would "velvety" work? I'm trying to find an alternative to "softer, fuzzier" that is a little more clearly a good thing.

[tubatooter1940]

My first two gigs with my new stainless G&W "Diablo" mpc, I played really loud so I personally could enjoy the edge and velvet it gave my sound. I had four of five new zits from abrasion each time.
"I know, it's only rock and roll, but I like it- like it, yes I do." (Mick Jagger)
Last Saturday, we played a smaller room with no rugs, table cloths or curtains to deaden the sounds. We used our small p.a. for everything but tuba and I brought one 300 watt EON with treble turned down for a tuba amp. The EON was right next to me on the floor where I could reach the volume and I could hear it really well. I played mezzo-forte mostly, and liked what I heard out of my speaker. I had no redness after the gig and Tuesday only a little white crusting on the lower lip.
I need to blatt less and develop the mellow velvet. I don't care what the critics say, I think the chicks dig it.

[Peach]

I fully accept mouthpiece material can make a difference (the whole thing); I know that and enjoy playing on SS pieces.

But can the finish of a mouthpiece alone make any difference to the overtones/'core clarity'/whatever you want to call sound?
Really?!?

I haven't played the Titanium finish so have no idea personally.
Does it alter the density of the piece?
I don't get it.
I'm going for a sleep.

Best.

[Chuck(G)]

Nope, the TiN finish is only a couple of microns thick at most. I think what the previous posters were talking about was a solid titanium mouthpiece.

[Chuck(G)]

I have it on very good authority that the coating isn't the matte part. The mouthpiece rim has been bead-blasted before coating. As I mentioned, the coating itself is only a couple of microns thick and really can have no direct effect on tone.

[tubatom91]

sounds like a fun experiment.
I'll keep this in mind when I need to plate my Mirafone C4

[Donn]

I fully accept mouthpiece material can make a difference (the whole thing); I know that and enjoy playing on SS pieces.

But can the finish of a mouthpiece alone make any difference to the overtones/'core clarity'/whatever you want to call sound?

In fact, the material doesn't make any difference at all - only the finish.

I could be wrong, but it all adds up better that way, in my opinion.

- If stainless is significantly different from brass, wouldn't you expect Lexan to be much more radically different? It's sure different in terms of elasticity, weight, density, etc.

- Haven't people noticed a difference with gold plating, even though it's very thin?

- Why would mouthpiece material make any difference? These are basic solid objects in the context of the way we use them. A metal mouthpiece can ring, but that doesn't sound anything like normal tuba playing. It's surely not capable of any significant resonance in the tuba range, nor would we want that going on if it could.

- The significance of the finish seems like it should be self evident, though when Ivan Giddings actually brought it to our attention here I have to admit it hadn't occurred to me. Sound is generated using in part your lips, which are anchored to the rim, and changes in surface there can affect how that works. Kind of like the ligature on a reed instrument, which reed players will insist makes a big difference (but in the brass case it's more obvious, since any ligature is going to lock the reed pretty firmly to the mouthpiece.)

- It's not hard to detect operational differences between the finishes that we suspect have tonal implications. Lexan is notably sticky. Stainless seems slippery to me. Gold is said to be more slippery than silver - not sure I can feel it, but I've only had my gold plated 7B for a week or two.

The TI coating sounds pretty good to me, but I'm also going to experiment with letting my mouthpiece get really crusty and see how that affects things.

[MaryAnn]

If you are allergic and don't have the $$ to spend on fancy-metals mouthpieces, there is always good old nail polish. Buy the non-touloene (spelling?) kind; I believe Revlon makes one. Dark red seems to work the best. Put it on the rim; a small bottle will last years. It is halfway between silver and gold in slipperiness/feel. You have to let it sit completely undisturbed for half an hour after you paint it before you use it, or you will have to start over.

MA

[Alan Baer]

If you have a nickel allergy, as I do.. Not all Stainless steel is the same.
303 Stainless will leach nickle. I have a bad reaction.
304 Stainless will not leach nickel, no reaction
15/5 Stainless will not leach nickel, no reaction

I would check very carfully with your mouthpiece maker to see what stainless he's using.. If it's 303... you may just find youself with problems.
Check out some of the sites that talk about nickel allergies. MANY people will have have a reaction to 303.
Alan Baer

[tubatom91]

If you are allergic and don't have the $$ to spend on fancy-metals mouthpieces, there is always good old nail polish. Buy the non-touloene (spelling?) kind; I believe Revlon makes one. Dark red seems to work the best. Put it on the rim; a small bottle will last years. It is halfway between silver and gold in slipperiness/feel. You have to let it sit completely undisturbed for half an hour after you paint it before you use it, or you will have to start over.

MA

thanks I tried this out right after I read this.
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[SplatterTone]

thanks I tried this out right after I read this.

So ...
I now have reason to ask: Did this work?

[SplatterTone]

I put on a heavy coat of dark, metallic blue tonight. Claim is no toluene, no formaldehyde. It feels kind of nice on the face -- kind of cushy, probably good for cold, outdoor playing. It tends to grip the face which might be good, might be bad.

I did it because I have been getting some irritation around the area where the lips contact the MP near the corners of my mouth. I'm not sure if it is the metal, mechanical irritation, or the weather. I am very sensitive to dry, cold weather, requiring an almost constant presence of anit-chap balm (Chapstik, Dr. Bronner's, etc.). We shall see.

[SplatterTone]

Results are in, and I have confirmed that I have developed a sensitivity to standard, metal mouthpieces. Applying the fingernail polish caused the symptoms to go away. Removing the polish caused the symptoms to return. The polish does change the feel of the mouthpiece a little, but not a lot. I might stay with the polish, or maybe try a stainless steel MP or two; but the selection of stainless steel MPs is small compared to the standard stuff. What I really need to do is try duplicating what I like with wood and seal it with a penetrating hardener.