None of us do it "for the money".

[tubatooter1940]

Way to go Tubajoe. Play when it feels right and believe the money will eventually be there. I've been blessed to make music all but three years since high school.
I was distressed to read our friend, Klaus, quit performing when illness and time made him less a player than someone young and strong.
I'm older than Klaus but the joints I play have had nothing but guitar bands for entertainment for many years. If I don't blow 'em some tuba, who will? I might be old and creaky but if it is a question of tuba or not tuba, it's tuba.

[adam0408]

I also understand that regardless of how good we are at this that there is no way that an international tuba soloist is going to demand the same money as YoYo Ma. Or for that matter what Bill Clinton can make for a one hour speaking appearance.

Why not? I don't especially care for the sound of the voilin, or the sound of Jessica Simpson's voice, but many people do, therefore there is opportunity for LOADS of money.


So guys, how do you survive in the freelance world anyway? Things look pretty dark from what you guys say.....

[Rick Denney]

The overall underlying issue is that in the USA, music is seen exclusively as an extra-curricular activity (as is everything that does not directly generate a profit). That puts all musicians at a disadvantage from the start, and demeans those of us who have dedicated our lives to this craft.

Golf is also an extra-curricular activity, but the more idiots like me play golf, the more market there will be for teachers, salesmen, greenskeepers, pro-shop salespeople, driving range operators, and even tournament pros.

The strength of music is that it is an extra-curricular activity. Nobody admires more a skillful performance than those who have the interest but lack the skill. They know just enough to know how hard it is to do it well.

The declining market for professionals in certain genres directly traces to the decline of music in those genres performed by amateurs as an extra-curricular activity.

The more musicians perform, the more music will be part of the fabric of society. That is good for both amateurs and professionals. We depend on each other.

Rick "who ALWAYS reads posts by TubaJoe" Denney

[ken k]

The overall underlying issue is that in the USA, music is seen exclusively as an extra-curricular activity (as is everything that does not directly generate a profit). That puts all musicians at a disadvantage from the start, and demeans those of us who have dedicated our lives to this craft.

Golf is also an extra-curricular activity, but the more idiots like me play golf, the more market there will be for teachers, salesmen, greenskeepers, pro-shop salespeople, driving range operators, and even tournament pros.

The strength of music is that it is an extra-curricular activity. Nobody admires more a skillful performance than those who have the interest but lack the skill. They know just enough to know how hard it is to do it well.

The declining market for professionals in certain genres directly traces to the decline of music in those genres performed by amateurs as an extra-curricular activity.

The more musicians perform, the more music will be part of the fabric of society. That is good for both amateurs and professionals. We depend on each other.

Rick "who ALWAYS reads posts by TubaJoe" Denney

Very good point Rick. This is partly what bothers me most about the audience at most of my performances. They are mostly all "gray hairs". Not a one under 50. (nothing personal meant to any of you who are in this age group. I myself will be there in a few short years.)

In 20 years I fear the senior centers will all be sponsoring concerts by "Rolling Stones" cover bands rather than concert bands or brass quintets.

ken k

[lgb&dtuba]

The declining market for professionals in certain genres directly traces to the decline of music in those genres performed by amateurs as an extra-curricular activity.

Very good point Rick. This is partly what bothers me most about the audience at most of my performances. They are mostly all "gray hairs". Not a one under 50. (nothing personal meant to any of you who are in this age group. I myself will be there in a few short years.)

In 20 years I fear the senior centers will all be sponsoring concerts by "Rolling Stones" cover bands rather than concert bands or brass quintets.

ken k

I agree, but it will be more like in 5-10 years.

There was a PBS special on a couple of weeks ago on Boomers that was pointing out that as the Boomers approach retirement they are finding time to go back and do things that they didn't have the time for while raising families and working 60 hour work weeks. One of those things is forming rock bands. Playing the music from the sixties and seventies they grew up on.

Guess who they play for?

Other Boomers. Who want to hear the old songs again. Remember the old days. Get up and dance. Not sit there and passively listen to a concert of music that most never did care about (for whatever reasons).

OK, there's a certain amount of humor in seeing a geriatric rock band playing "Born to be Wild". OK, a lot of humor.

There are a lot of us Boomers. Many of us will have some free time soon. Some will certainly be in senior centers soon, but a whole lot won't. We'll be looking for some fun activities. I'd actually expect a resurgence to some degree in classical music as those who learned those types of instruments brush them off and start looking for somewhere to play again. Rick's extra-curricular group in action. Time will tell if that also leads to better opportunities for working classical musicians or not.

I'd expect quite an upsurge in rock instrument sales over the next 10 years and not to teens. Not as long as (c)rap is popular in that age group. Boomers are going to find out that the old Fender in the closet has a warped neck, the pots have corroded and there are so many new toys to plug in now. They're going to go out and buy that guitar they always wanted.

Actually, I expect renewed interest in performing just about all types of music for fun. More so in smaller groups, though. It's a heck of a sight easier to get together 5 or 6 like minded people to play than 50.

Smart pros will keep an ear to what the Boomers are doing and interested in and look for opportunities to perform for them. That retirement money is going to get spent somewhere. Mocking us (if anyone is so inclined) isn't going to get you a piece of the action.

[lgb&dtuba]

They have fun, tip us nicely, buy more drinks (boss is happy), and everyone enjoys themselves. Isn't that the point?

These folks continuously say they can't hear THEIR music anywhere. That should be a WAKE UP CALL to musicians out there. Hello???

Doc (who's almost a boomer like his older siblings)

You get it.

I have a brother in law in a rock band out in Kalifornia. He's closer to your age than mine, or maybe in between us. Most of his fellow band members are in their late 40's and early 50's. I was talking to him just after that PBS show and he said his band is working as much as they can stand and what he described is exactly what you described. He's having a ball. Getting paid.

I just passed 60 and figure that I have maybe a couple more Oktoberfest seasons in me before the chops and back give out. 4 and 5 hour gigs two or three time a week are taking their toll.

But I can still handle an electric bass or guitar just fine. I plan on joining in on this wave soon. It should be fun. For me it's about the performing and the music, not the instrument you do it on.

Glad you've already caught the wave, Doc. Enjoy the ride.

[Leland]

These folks continuously say they can't hear THEIR music anywhere.

Is it just me (speaking as nearly Gen-X, but a little old anyway), or do baby boomers identify with & take ownership of their music more than most other generations? It just seems like the music of the time was used as social & political expression more than it ever had before.

My dad's band from college had a reunion of their own several years ago. He brought his drumset, and everybody got together at the home of one of the guitar players. We all hung out, told & heard stories, and they plugged in and played some of the tunes from way back when. Plenty of guitar-centric surf stuff (think The Ventures and Dick Dale & His Deltones). I don't think they played any more besides that day, but it was a hell of a lot of fun.

[lgb&dtuba]

Well, not everyone from that time was a hippie. Don't believe everything the media loves to pump out about the 60's. That's the image and not the reality.

There's another factor that I've never seen anyone bring up (but maybe I just haven't seen it discussed) that goes a lot further to explain the big surge in music during that time. The transistor radio.

The first consumer transister radio had come out in 1954 and by about 1960 they were inexpensive and readily available. If you had a 9 transistor pocket radio you were cool. They were the iPod of the time. For the first time you could listen to your music through an earplug hooked to a small inexpensive radio carried in your pocket. During class. There were a few tube portables before that, but the batteries alone for them were bigger than the transistor radio. You couldn't slip those into your pocket.

That really opened up the music market to a whole new generation and the business was quick to capitalize on it. Radio stations began to market themselves to the new generation of transistor radio carrying kids who were eager to spend their allowances and part time job earnings on music that was different from their parents. New rock and folk bands were everywhere and the whole music industry was transforming itself accordingly. Specifically, away from the traditional separation between composers and performers. The singer/songwriter was rapidly replacing tin pan alley. Both because of the demand for new music and the economics.

Once again, it's all about the $$$.

This is not to deny the themes present in the music of the times, but more to show how it became all pervasive. I certainly had my transistor radio and my parents never had any use for one or the music you could hear on it. Of course, the whole generation was listening to the same music and it was being created by that generation, but I'm not sure it would have become what it did without the transistor radio.

We take these things for granted today, but we were on the leading edge of all the new technology back then.

[tbn.al]

This is partly what bothers me most about the audience at most of my performances. They are mostly all "gray hairs". Not a one under 50. (nothing personal meant to any of you who are in this age group. I myself will be there in a few short years.)

In 20 years I fear the senior centers will all be sponsoring concerts by "Rolling Stones" cover bands rather than concert bands or brass quintets.

ken k

Amen! My quintet just did a very successful, for the charity, benefit at my church. We played tunes from Gabrieli to Lennon-Marcrtney. The trombone player remarked after the gig that the audience was all over 50. Even traditional "church" music is on the decline. If you play decent guitar it's easier to get a church gig than french horn. I don't think I will be relegated to "Christian Rock" in my lifetime, but I'm an old f@&! and it will happen to most of you. The great "unwashed" are taking over. Seems like the last time this happened in a society they called it the Dark Ages. Sorry about the gloomy rant, but this is all too sad.

[iiipopes]

I agree, but it will be more like in 5-10 years.

There was a PBS special on a couple of weeks ago on Boomers that was pointing out that as the Boomers approach retirement they are finding time to go back and do things that they didn't have the time for while raising families and working 60 hour work weeks. One of those things is forming rock bands. Playing the music from the sixties and seventies they grew up on.

Guess who they play for?

Other Boomers. Who want to hear the old songs again. Remember the old days. Get up and dance. Not sit there and passively listen to a concert of music that most never did care about (for whatever reasons).

Actually, the time is now. There is a local group called the M-Dock Band made up of Boomers who all have day jobs. I was their original bass player ten years ago. They are still together, and they are not only the most popular party band in the area, they even go on tour to Mexico and a few other countries, including Chamber of Commerce sponsored "cultural exchange" trips to this metropolitan area's "sister city" in Japan!

I quit playing with them simply because I don't want to travel that much. But they do sound good, and I still jam with them occasionally.

[Tom Holtz]

Warning: this post is too long. Sorry.

It seems that this "interactive" stuff is just with the boomers. Of course they connect - it's their music, but the joining in/comraderie/peace/love/dove stuff really shows through. It really is a blast...

I occasionally do a dixie gig with a local boomer who plays banjo. We start out with the dixie stuff, and pretty soon after we're playing 60's stuff. I've done duo gigs with this guy for private parties, and he owns the crowd. On banjo. Thank heaven my parents had an old portable turntable and kept an AM radio going in the kitchen, otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to BS my way through the bridges of all those old rock tunes. Even got a smile from the banjo player when I could remember the proper bass riffs on occasion.

This one time, he booked us for a four-hour private party gig--not a "HOT 4pc. group", just him and my p.o.s. helicon. I thought we'd be dead in the water, with just us two. We played a very short first set, took a long break while the party had a few drinks, and then he led me wading through the crowd in a 70-minute "interactive karaoke" chopbuster set. They all sang, drank, got tired, went home happy. We got paid extra, and went home after 2 1/2 hours instead of four. I'm thinking, "Are you kidding me?!?"

These folks continuously say they can't hear THEIR music anywhere. That should be a WAKE UP CALL to musicians out there. Hello???

That's exactly what the dixieland crowd says, the folks I meet at jazz festivals. They're very old, though, and not as many left around as the boomers. Still, the vibe is the same. On the written comment sheets at these festivals, "OKOM" is a common abbreviation used to talk about the trad bands--stands for "our kind of music." They'll travel and pay to hear their music, and the boomers will pay, too. They already do--lots of gigging to be done playing their kind of music.

Is it just me (speaking as nearly Gen-X, but a little old anyway), or do baby boomers identify with & take ownership of their music more than most other generations? It just seems like the music of the time was used as social & political expression more than it ever had before.

You got that right, brother. The boomers were the last generation of people that didn't get all of "their" music produced for them by record labels. There really was an ownership of the music back then that may never happen again.

Radio stations began to market themselves to the new generation of transistor radio carrying kids who were eager to spend their allowances and part time job earnings on music that was different from their parents.

As much as it was a boon to the music of that time, it was also the beginning of the end. At some point in the 60's, when there was enough money to be made, the radio stations and record labels stopped being run my music lovers and started being run by accountants and lawyers. Still, the boomers were the first generation to get radio aimed towards them in their youth.

The emergence of the guitar was as important, if not more so, than radio. If you didn't have a radio, one guy with a guitar could get everyone around singing. A singer/songwriter wasn't doing his thing at the piano at home where nobody could hear him, he was playing guitar and singing for people right there on the spot, connecting with his audience. Plug it into an amp, and you've got the sound that has defined popular music for the last sixty years. Two or three guys with guitars and voices could get together and be a band, put their talents together, and get a big sound like the groups they heard on the radio. Some would become the groups others heard on the radio. Most importantly, kids heard a song on the radio, made that connection, picked up a guitar, and continued the cycle. That's ownership, that's why the boomers were such an integral part of their music and music was such an integral part of the boomers. I've watched my dad do this, I've watched it on gigs, I hear people talking about it and remembering it fondly. Music became a social activity, and the acoustic guitar was the enabler and the foundation. The boomers are paying top dollar to get a taste of that again, and they want to hear the music live, and be a part of it again.

If you picked tuba for the money, you picked the wrong axe. If you want to play for pay on a money axe, it's got strings. It ain't got a bow.

[lgb&dtuba]

All good points, Tom.

And it just shows that there are many interelated aspects to the phenomenom.

I certainly learned my guitar and bass skills during that time and just as you described.

This is a tuba forum and here we all supposed to discuss tubas and tuba music, but I agree completely with you that if you want to get paid to play you'd better be a multi-skilled musician playing the instruments and music that people are actually willing to pay to hear. From what you've said about what you do, they are even willing to pay to hear tuba, if you're playing what they want to hear and are entertaining.

[Donn]

The boomers were the last generation of people that didn't get all of "their" music produced for them by record labels. There really was an ownership of the music back then that may never happen again.

I would have gone along with that a year ago. Today, I think it might be true as a general statement, but not true in some interesting ways. During this last year I have been playing with younger people who are plugged in to a music and arts scene that has no apparent relationship to the industry. It's small, it's kind of underground, but seems to be thriving in its own way, and thanks to the web etc. it's not nearly as exclusive as underground stuff used to be.

The interesting part: they can totally dig a brass band. I'm not talking about British brass bands or any kind of symphonic thing, I'm not talking about nostalgia for high school band, or watered down '20s jazz, but ask snuffleufigus if the tuba works for young people. His band (Slavic Soul Party) is way ahead of ours, but we're in more or less the same genre - some stuff from brass bands in Romania and other nearby countries, some vaguely Klesmer, and original stuff. Another type of act I see springing up around here without any obvious industry connection is a sort of rag-tag travelling string band theme - with a string or washtub bass, but there's usually an accordion, and I believe a tuba would work great (I don't think string bass holds up very well against an accordion, outdoors.) That might sound kind of lightweight, but some of these kids are really pretty sophisticated and well versed in folk traditions you never heard of.

Tell me if I'm wrong about this, but I think a major obstacle to these efforts is shortage of musicians. Lots of kids come out of high school with the ability to play a band instrument - given the sheet music and a conductor. But few seem to have much interest in pursuing it on their own after that, and few seem to have any experience playing by ear. I'm not saying it's going to happen, but maybe what if kids started seeing the tuba the way they've seen the electric bass for decades, as an instrument they can own and play outside school? The chances are better now than they have been for a half century, that's what I think, but they won't be able to do it on their own, any more than they ever have.

So my point is, the tuba really does have potential in popular music beyond just nostalgia, and it would be a shame if we collectively let that opportunity pass.

[Rick Denney]

...Thank heaven my parents had an old portable turntable and kept an AM radio going in the kitchen...

You have no idea how old I feel listening to you talk about your freakin' parents as baby boomers.

Rick "a remarkably young baby boomer" Denney

[markrubin]

Uh, someone say my name?? Jeez I never have enough time to read these things, as I'm out there playing for money.

Well there's a few cat here locally playing tuba in places where bass is concidered the norm. I can't reall his name, but there's a fine sousaphone player playing in a Jazz Manouche trio called Django's Moustache and I saw him back up singer songwriter Guy Forsythe as well. The nuevo-trad jazz-revival knuckle heads shy away from tuba because a) they expensive and b) you can't fake it which is how they seem to get by around here.

As far as brass bands, what can I say, everybody loves a parade. I have an anarchist street theater direct action brass collective that I conjure up from time to time called the Jericho Brass and I seem to be able to get more than a quorum regularly. The Rroma-Serbo-Macedonian Brass band fad has yet to hit Texas like it has the sophisticated coasts, but we already have Narco-Banda from Sinaloa and Czech Brass polka down here as it is, so no loss there. Good music played well will create a crowd, even with a tuba if that's how you roll. 12 years I toured with Bad Livers and the only question anybody ever asked me was 'bluegrass with a tuba, why?" No wonder I don't do that anymore...

What were y'all talking about anyway? The more y'all sqauk, the less you be playing. And what good comes of that?

Gotta go and catch the bus for gig. That I'm doing for money.

Cheers.

[Tom Holtz]

From what you've said about what you do, they are even willing to pay to hear tuba, if you're playing what they want to hear and are entertaining.

I would agree, but you have to find other musicians that will go out on that limb with you... The audience, however, could be a lot more willing to go out on that limb with you.

Such was my experience playing that first wacked-out duo job. Those folks didn't care what axe I was playing, only that I was driving a Chevy to the levy or somesuch. Sure opened my eyes to the possibilities. If only I had the cajones to pursue something like that on my own. There's opportunity out there for those who can make it and take it.

You have no idea how old I feel listening to you talk about your freakin' parents as baby boomers.

Uffda. My bad.

During this last year I have been playing with younger people who are plugged in to a music and arts scene that has no apparent relationship to the industry. It's small, it's kind of underground, but seems to be thriving in its own way, and thanks to the web etc. it's not nearly as exclusive as underground stuff used to be.

Well, thanks to podcasting and YouTube, the definition of "underground" may be very different in a very short while. Do the internet and the computer do for this decade what the transistor radio and the guitar was to the 1960's?

[iiipopes]

I was really happy with my last full-time paying bass guitar gig. The problem was that the audience had died out since the show first came to Branson, so my season with the show ended up being the last.

[Abeltuba]

I agree with most of what has been said. Granted I did not read all the wonderful posts but enough was read for me to remember that a great friend of mine (bass trombonist) once said to me that he felt we, as low brass players, were born at the wrong time.

At first I did not fully understand what he meant but later I did.
It seems that with the limited jobs available for the orchestral low brass player (or any instrument for that matter---but in this case---ONE tuba position) it is very competitive and challenging. The discipline and dedication to achieve that level of musicianship certainly requires big sacrfices. It takes a different mentality in my opinion.

He later went on to describe how for the bass trombonist, aside from orchestral position still opening up around the globe, the big band era, for example is not what it used to be. Many big bands are no longer around and this of course made those available jobs no longer availble. I think this is what he meant when he said "I think I was born at the wrong time" there's probably more to that but you get the point.

In decades past the jobs available were much greater than today and the love for live performances was greater. It seems with changing times and the way digital music has changed the world, live music is not THE THING anymore. Perhaps some of you feel it has not changed. I can see how some might argue that it is still as challenging to win a great tuba job as it was in the past. This is true! But it is also true that orchestras have disappeard for various reasons (funding etc etc)
However, the love of playing these instruments does bring joy and happiness to many of us.

Someone said there are great musicians out there who don't make a living playing music. This is true. I have heard many of them in community bands, brass bands, coffee shops, etc. Music is after all about emotion and whether it is done for pay or for free, i'm glad we all ad our talent to make the world just a little better amid all the negativity ocurring in our world.