"amateur" / "professional"

[tbn.al]

Thanks to Bloke for one of the most interesting posts since I have been reading this forum. If you play with, or even listen to the pros, you can't but want to play like them and the comments to this post have been invaluable to that end.

I still maintain that what they do comes from having more in the tank to start with and hence more in reserve to call up than I do. I can and have on occaision gotten to that point with a given piece, but the pros are there all the time. I think it comes from so many years of practice and performance experience. It's not often they run into something they haven't seen before and their fundamental skills are so polished, that they can use more brain cells thinking about making music than I, still struggling with notes, rhythms, and pitch, can. An Atlanta Symphony member is exposed to more music in a year than I will see in my lifetime, and if their skills were not exemplary they wouldn't have that opportunity. It's a enviable combination.

[Rick Denney]

pofessionals are much more encouraging and way less destructive in their coments and criticism than many amateurs.

I've told this story before, but it fits here and is similar to Joe's.

I once played tuba with a church orchestra in Austin. The music was Poulenc's Gloria. The second movement opens with a trombone duet, with the two trombonists alternating fast eighth notes.

At the rehearsal, one set of eighth notes came out strong, and the other set weak and late (late?--yes, maybe Bloke is right). I looked to my left, and guess who was playing first trombone?

Donald Knaub.

The second 'bone was a high-school kid, and he was clearly suffering from Intimidation Overload.

Now, Dr. Knaub could have told the kid to lay out and played both parts there flawlessly. But he didn't. Instead, he motioned to the music minister who was conducting the work to just keep going. During the break, he took the kid aside with the comment, "don't worry, we're going to play this together", and worked with him to get the second part right. And it was right when it counted, both musically and spiritually--just what a church orchestra should be. I played better just sitting next to someone who displayed that much character.

Most pros are confident enough in their standing that they don't have to prove it when they play with amateurs. Some non-pros are more fragile and take everything personally.

Rick "who wishes an opportunity like that would come his way again" Denney

[MaryAnn]

OK, I've been thinking about this since my first post, thinking that MaryAnn got it right, but also thinking deep down that bloke knows a thing or two as well, so I'll propose

Listening Skills

A person that knows what they're doing plays the rhythm right because they know what they're doing without being hesitant, but also has ensemble and pitch skills, BECAUSE THEY KNOW WHAT THEY"RE DOING, BUT LISTENING WHILE THEY DO IT

Apparently I was too esoteric in my definitions. Ensemble skills, as I tried to define them, ARE listening and blending skills. Subsets of "ensemble skills" are:
1. Knowing where you are because you are listening to what is going on around you;
2. Staying on the beat because you are listening to what is going on around you;
3. Playing on pitch because you are listening to what is going on around you.
4. Etc.

THAT is what I meant by being "externally focused." The "internally focused" player gets lost when he misses a note or two, gets behind the beat, and plays off pitch because of that "internal focus," which is, by definition, *not* listening to what is going on around you.

Of necessity there is a competence level that allows the player to do this while sight reading, or with minimal rehearsal. Even the highest level pros can need to rehearse when presented with music that is above a certain level of complexity.

I don't think any of us is disagreeing with any of the rest of us; we're just saying the same thing in different ways, with different people talking about different aspects of the same general idea.

MA, who has been known to sit and sing a part when holding an instrument that she doesn't have as well under belt technically as she would prefer

[Richard Murrow]

It's just this simple OR maybe not so simple, depending on your point of reference:

"The professional player is the person who can put the right note, in the right place, at the right time!"

[Leland]

I still maintain that what they do comes from having more in the tank to start with and hence more in reserve.... I think it comes from so many years of practice and performance experience. It's not often they run into something they haven't seen before...

Quite valid. They "fill the tank" -- or better yet, increase its capacity -- with all that practicing fundamentals, basics, and doing performances. The simple act of putting thousands of notes in front of oneself over the years doesn't guarantee success either, because, at some point, one needs to find out just what near-perfection is supposed to sound like, whether it's emulating a teacher, another performer, or reaching that level on their own.

Actually, that's something that I bring up regarding drum corps. They don't play very much music, but they refine how they play their music, enough so that it reaches a very professional level of quality. The kids' standards and expectations become raised quite a bit, and they're more willing to work for it.

Also.... I thought of this earlier today --

I had an electric bass-playing roommate for a couple years at the end of college, and sometimes I'd read his magazines. Recurring themes in articles & columns were how to get hired and how to keep a gig. Over and over, without fail, the one quality that was stressed was the ability to keep time. No matter what exercise or technique was being presented, you'd always read the phrase, "Do this with a metronome."

I thought it was an important point, because drummers and guitar & bass players are always looking for the best way to get work. They don't wait until they get a bachelor's or PhD -- they hit the ground running, eager to be hired. What better advice to follow than what they dish out?

[Leland]

...and "blend" is 90% not turning the thing up too d@mn loud and 10% fitting your sound on the bass in with the rest of the band. I even know bass players who aren't particularly imaginative (nor even "correct" ) in their choices of pitches to play, and (because of their reliable rhythm and self-control when it comes to avoiding "overplaying") they are paid to work.

bloke "rhythm."

[tangent]

Speaking of bassists who are too busy on their instruments, I'm reminded of a friend's band that had a bass player who could wail all up & down the fretboard. Incredible chops. Problem was, he did that ALL THE TIME, and the sound of the entire ensemble suffered because there was this constant indistinct rumble providing neither harmonic nor rhythmic support. Maybe he was harmonically correct in a bebop sort of way, but nobody could tell because it only sounded like "ommmobomoombmom".

They got rid of him (might have been his drug use that gave them an easier way to fire him, too) and got a smarter, but less skilled, bassist. The new guy played much fewer notes and much simpler lines, but they all made sense, they were in time, and they stayed out of everyone else's way. Even with the rest of the personnel unchanged, the whole group sounded a hundred percent better.

Chops /= musicianship.

[/tangent]

[tubeast]

Hmmmm..
exactly WHEN is an amateur turning into a pro ?
Is it a matter of musical impeccability or rather a state of mind?

I personally am convinced a professional musician is professionally making music a long time before earning the first gigging-money or earning a degree. I´m also convinced professional musicians are in danger of losing the professional quality of their musicianship just because of their state of mind, either. No matter what their expertise in handling their instrument may be. To me, music is tied closely to devotion.

[zeign7]

I know this was mentioned before but I think the importance of it needs to be reasserted.

THE difference between an amateur and a professional is that the amateur does whatever task out of pure love for the task because he/she does not get paid for it, while the professional gets paid regularly to peform said task (without questioning their enthusiasm, most professional musicians also love their job ).

I much prefer this line of thought to most of the thread. The thread is more about what makes a "good" or "great" or some other adjective player rather than professional vs. amateur because some professionals are on the not so good side and some amateurs are amazing! Of course, the majority is that if you are a professional, you're probably one for a reason

[Rick Denney]

...Of course, the majority is that if you are a professional, you're probably one for a reason

Anybody can be a professional. All it takes is hanging out a shingle and announcing to the world that you offer services for hire. (i.e., to "profess" to provide services for hire).

Being a successful professional is another matter. That requires a range of qualifications, not all of which are purely related to chops, as has been pointed out.

Bloke's example of the New Orleans street band is just one example that happens to support his point. But there are other examples where the musicians not only have to have the rhythm just right, but also have to have the sound, dynamic, intonation, and style just right. But the sense of rhythm and pulse runs like a current through those other issues, too, and is probably more important to the audience. It's certainly a high priority with the conductor of my ensemble.

It won't do we amateurs any harm to ponder what it is that makes us admire successful professionals. The more we emulate that, the better we will be. We don't have to be offended by the common error that the terms "professional" and "amateur" should not denote skill level. In my case, however, they do.

Rick "doing more metronome work these days than ever before" Denney

[MartyNeilan]

2. Staying on the beat because you are listening to what is going on around you;

Of course, what is "on the beat" varies widely depending on the style of music and the ensemble.
Playing a march with a band may mean having the tubas a hair ahead of the beat.
Playing the bottom trombone part in a jazz ensemble may mean consistently playing a laid back hair behind the beat of the bass and drums.
Playing in some orchestras may mean playing way behind the "beat" of the baton.
In the last two environments, being the first to jump in is usually NOT a good thing, and something that may frustrate an excellent Wind Ensemble tubist newly entering the big band or orchestral world.

[MaryAnn]

Agree. I gave up trying to play bluegrass with a very fine orchestra tubist because he consistently anticipated the beat; after I tried to catch him for a while, I figured it out (and he was damn good at staying ahead of me, too!)
Some skills come back to bite you in the rear.
MA

[iiipopes]

Indeed. Whether or not you pursue a given occupation, vocation or avocation as your main source of income has nothing to do with it. For example, how many doctors get their licenses yanked each year for being incompetent?

On the other hand, one of the greatest golfers of all time who won the grand slam when it truly was a grand slam, the US open, the US amateur, the British open and the British amateur, all in the same year, and numerous other tournaments, was Bob Jones, who was a lawyer and not a "professional" golfer.

[Leland]

Bob Jones, then, certainly played golf at a professional level, and that's really what this thread is supposed to be about.

[iiipopes]

Bob Jones, then, certainly played golf at a professional level, and that's really what this thread is supposed to be about.

Exactly my point.

[peter birch]

[quote="iiipopes"]Indeed. Whether or not you pursue a given occupation, vocation or avocation as your main source of income has nothing to do with it. For example, how many doctors get their licenses yanked each year for being incompetent?

here it begind to get philosophically complex. my professional background is healthcare, i estimate that 90% of nursing is done by non professional carers, often better and with more love and devotion than professional nurses.
I have seen pro musicians behave in ways that i never would with music, because to them it has become just another job, however well they play it in tune or with rhythmical precision.
motivation is important in all things.
James Watson the trumpet player told a group or kids that he made it not because he was the best player in his town, but because he really wanted to do it.
we should not equate being professional with being better than anyone else

[ken k]

this was used in an NFL commercial of all things but I think it applies to music and to this discussion.

Amatuers practice so they can get it right.

Professionals practice so they never get it wrong.

(edit: I just read page three and saw arkietuba say the same thing. I also agree with windsheildbug that listening is the key to playing in time, in tune and in style.)

I will agree with bloke that rhythm is a biggie. It is also the thing that most audience members will be able to notice. If the ensemble is not playing together it is usually obvious even to the uninitiated.

Bad intonation on the other hand will not usually be noticed by "Joe the plumber." (Please note that I have nothing against plumbers.) But I believe it is one (of many) aspect that separates the girls from the women. I know over the years my tolerence (or intolerance) for intonation has changed dramatically. And it is something I try to point out to students but often times I am sure they really do not understand what I am trying to tell them, simply because they can not hear the difference yet. (especially bad slide positioning by trombone players.) Since I started life as a trombonist and still play and teach trombone as much as tuba, this is important to me. That is the biggest difference also between people who have learned to double on trombone vs. people who just play trombone and why I know very few euphonium/tuba players who truly can double on trombone well. (that and tonal concept but that is for another thread)

ken k

[ken k]

Thanks to Bloke for one of the most interesting posts since I have been reading this forum. If you play with, or even listen to the pros, you can't but want to play like them and the comments to this post have been invaluable to that end.

I still maintain that what they do comes from having more in the tank to start with and hence more in reserve to call up than I do. I can and have on occaision gotten to that point with a given piece, but the pros are there all the time. I think it comes from so many years of practice and performance experience. It's not often they run into something they haven't seen before and their fundamental skills are so polished, that they can use more brain cells thinking about making music than I, still struggling with notes, rhythms, and pitch, can. An Atlanta Symphony member is exposed to more music in a year than I will see in my lifetime, and if their skills were not exemplary they wouldn't have that opportunity. It's a enviable combination.

since i mentioned plumbers above... it is the same reason a simple plumbing repair takes me an entire weekend (or longer) as opposed to a three hour job by a pro .... experience makes a big difference. It is also the reason I rarely atempt my own repairs anymore (plumbing, electrical, automotive, etc.)

ken k

[Rick Denney]

TONIGHT, another BIG difference just hit me in the head:

"Professionals' rehearsals sound a HELUVA lot more like their performances than do amateurs'.

...

Another curious habit that amateur ensembles seem to have is 'last-minute-just-an-hour-before-the-concert' on-stage rehearsals ...Show up too early to have a chance to get home from work to catch a breath and/or bathe, and blow out your chops an hour before the downbeat."

Yes, and yes. Most amateurs don't come to rehearsal truly prepared. But most of the time, they are balancing their music against many other demands on their time. They usually have additional rehearsals to compensate.

In my experience, those who have gone through that Woodsheddin process of playing many hours every day for several years cross bridges that they never have to recross. I think that's the main difference between those who trained to be professional musicians and those who didn't. They can show up to a rehearsal and turn in what most amateur bands would consider a fine performance.

And those pre-concert rehearsals...I'm of two minds on that one. Often, that's done to get the amateur brain focused on the music, and in many groups it seems to be necessary. But I play those pretty tenderly, because another aspect of being an amateur is limited chop durability.

Rick "whose chops are blown just at the point of being fully warmed up" Denney

[Tubaguy56]

Yes, and yes. Most amateurs don't come to rehearsal truly prepared. But most of the time, they are balancing their music against many other demands on their time. They usually have additional rehearsals to compensate.

Yes, but many pros will go to gigs not "prepared" but have such good fundamental and sight-reading skills that it seems like they're prepared (did that make sense?)

[lgb&dtuba]

I've been following this thread with some interest. There sure has been a real attempt to paint all pros with one brush and amateurs with another. Not everyone has done so, but quite a few have.

I'm going to echo what some have said. There are pros who play like amateurs and some amateurs who play like pros. And people in both camps who aren't at their peaks or valleys all year long.

If all pros met the ideals espoused here there wouldn't ever be any firings. And we know that's just not true.

I would certainly agree that you're going to run into quite a few more bad musicians in run of the mill amateur groups, but that's the nature of the beast.

Some of you "pros" who have extended your definitions beyond that of simply earning your living from playing your instrument so that you could be included in the pro category on this forum really need to get over yourselves. A professional instrument repair tech is in the (broad term) music business, but that doesn't make him a professional musician. And I'm just using that as an example and not singling anyone in particular out. If you're doing anything else at all to earn the bulk of your income you are best a part time professional musician or a wannabe. In other words, an amateur.

(Before tubajoe jumps me on that one, I'm not referring to all the non-music or management activities that someone like him does. There is a lot more to being a gigging pro or running a band than just showing up with your instrument once you are outside the world of inhabiting a chair in an orchestra. Think entrepreneur or manager, not employee.)

In the mean time, be thankful you have somewhere, anywhere to play, for pay or for free. Redirect all that energy away from whining about others and into honing your own skills. Or maybe try to help out one of those poorer players (if they'll accept any help from you) to become better.

If you really can't stand being around those who play at a lower level than you believe you do, then get the heck out of there and find people that deserve you. If you're truly a pro, what are you doing messing around in an amateur group anyway?

Jim 'an amateur who never claimed to be anything but' Wagner