iiipopes wrote:After more than three decades playing guitars...
Now I'm really confused.
How does a guitar force one to play in equal temperament? I suspect that most guitarists tune their instruments in some sort of unequal temperament, given the way that tuning is performed--unless you're using an electronic tuner to set your instrument up.
iiipopes wrote:After more than three decades playing guitars...
Now I'm really confused.
How does a guitar force one to play in equal temperament? I suspect that most guitarists tune their instruments in some sort of unequal temperament, given the way that tuning is performed--unless you're using an electronic tuner to set your instrument up.
Because of the frets. The same fret spacing is (necessarily) used for all six strings. Equal temperament is the default for all fretted string instruments. It is possible, with a combination of modified open string tuning and pitch bending, to play a guitar in other temperaments. For example, Flamenco guitarists do, so that they can be more in-tune in, say, E phyrigian.
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I enjoyed the remarks about people thinking that just intonation sounds dull or out of tune. Years ago there was a famous gaffe by a Boston Globe music critic. He had written about an inaugural concert on a new Baroque-style pipe organ. He liked the music, but stated that before the organ was played for the public again, it should be given a thorough tuning. A couple of weeks later, the embarrassed critic wrote an article about what he had just learned about meantone temperament and its use in the Baroque era.
Allen wrote:Because of the frets. The same fret spacing is (necessarily) used for all six strings. Equal temperament is the default for all fretted string instruments.
I disagree that standard guitar tuning is strict equal temperament, but neither is it any of the classical unequal temperaments.
While it's certainly possible to closely approach equal temperament in guitar tuning, I doubt that many players actually take the trouble to tune this way:
Allen wrote:Because of the frets. The same fret spacing is (necessarily) used for all six strings. Equal temperament is the default for all fretted string instruments.
I disagree that standard guitar tuning is strict equal temperament, but neither is it any of the classical unequal temperaments.
While it's certainly possible to closely approach equal temperament in guitar tuning, I doubt that many players actually take the trouble to tune this way:
I strongly suspect that most guitar players tune this way:
which tunes the strings in perfect 4ths, but is not by any stretch of the imagination, equal temperament.
Yup -- that's how we tune 'em. (Or more typically, I use a tuner to tune all 6 open strings when it's too noisy to hear the strings easily. {or use harmonics of the strings to avoid any shift in intonation due to stretching the string while tuning}).
I don't play the guitar, so I can't argue with those who do. Still, the fact that the same frets are used for all strings limits what you can do with temperaments on the instrument.
My brother is a fine guitarist, and among other things plays Flamenco concerts in Spain and Mexico. His tuning method is to quickly give the tuning pegs a bit of a twist as he plays; it appears that his ear competes well with elecronic tuners. He retunes for the different keys/modes he plays in. He knows about equal temperament, but prefers not to use it for most of what he plays.
The notion of temperaments really applies to fixed-pitch instruments, such as keyboard and fretted instruments. Tubas have, shall we say, flexible pitch. This means that good players can play more in tune than pianos and guitars, but poor players will play less in tune. And then we have the violin players...
That's amazing! I suppose I shouldn't have been surprised to read about all the troubles those rockers had playing notes that even resembled being in tune.
Contrast the rock guitarists in the article above to all of the tubists who assiduously pull slides and seek alternative fingerings to play in tune. I wouldn't single out guitarists. Lately, I have been spending a lot of rehearsal time waiting for a bunch of woodwind players to find a common pitch when they are supposed to be playing in unison, etc.
Guitarists and bass guitarists also have to deal with string stretch and some other issues so that "mathematically perfect" tempered pitch does not exist on a guitar, either, even if you have the fret placement down to less than 1/1000 tolerance which is possible on CNC machines. That's why most electric guitars have some sort of intonation adjustment at the bridge, and why I also occasionally have to put a nut shim on the B string and low E string on a guitar, and never use a plain G string, which for string stretch and tuning is the worst offender, so these intonation issues are minimized.
Another lesser known fact: Buzz Feiten is only the guy who actually quantified the nut adjustment. Martin 25 1/2 inch scale is actually a little less than that because of the compensated nut. Older Gibson's 24 3/4 inch scale is also actually a little less than that for the same reason.
Fender and some others, however, are NOT compensated in any way. And even though my ears are accustomed to the brightness of the sharpness of equally tempered major thirds, I cannot stand how sharp they go on the lower frets due to string stretch. So are a lot of other people, who have their guitars either altered or purposely tune a plain g string flat.
Equal temperament is also one reason that pipe organs don't have a lot of third sounding pipes in their mixtures anymore, but mostly only octaves and fifths, and draw the third sounding ranks, also called tierce (as the "top rank" in a cornet stop) or 17th (scale number in relation to the prime) as a separate stop, for those organs that even still have them, and usually now only organs of substantial size and three or more manuals.
EuphManRob wrote:
D major, D minor, Db major - blue (bright to dark)
E major, E minor, Eb major, E minor - green (bright to dark)
F# major/minor, F major/minor - red (ditto)
A major/minor, Ab major/minor - yellow (ditto)
I heard something just like this when Dr. McCashin (JMU) was the guest conducter for our county orchestra, he associated colors with the sharp keys, but when he would hear flat keys, it would be more of a grey-brown-bland color.
EuphManRob wrote:
D major, D minor, Db major - blue (bright to dark)
E major, E minor, Eb major, E minor - green (bright to dark)
F# major/minor, F major/minor - red (ditto)
A major/minor, Ab major/minor - yellow (ditto)
I heard something just like this when Dr. McCashin (JMU) was the guest conducter for our county orchestra, he associated colors with the sharp keys, but when he would hear flat keys, it would be more of a grey-brown-bland color.
"Hear" or "see" ?
i guess hear, but then thats the type of stuff narcotics do make you see noise, and hear colors.
But really, i think what he meant was the texture he heard was what he saw in the his mind. i guess if it was a scene in a movie, that would be the color that the scene would take.
an example: Over the summer, i did Penn State Summer music for the past two years, and last summer in the wind ensemble, we were playing oh my jesus what anguish, and the conducter Prof. Glocke said: "it feels like we just walked into a church with Hunter-Orange Wallpaper" I guess because we werent playing the music the way it was meant. But that might not be a good example, because it is more so about how to play the music, and not really to do with the key having color associated with it.
The sensation of sound and color that some have been describing is called "synesthesia". It is very real, but rare. Some people can confuse this with perfect pitch, it is not. Although synesthesia can function the same as perfect pitch and does, one can have both perfect pitch and synesthesia. It is simply a cross-wiring of the senses and for many people who have this "malfuction" sight and sound receive a kind of "faulty wiring". Consequently, the pitch C will cause the color white to flash in ones mind or G might be green, etc. At least that is how it works for me. I don't think the colors are not always the same for each individual however. Remember that this is not pitch memory as in perfect pitch. Please read the info below for a better understanding:
syn-es-the-sia n. Physiol. Sensation produced at a point other than
or remote from the point of stimulation, as of a color from hearing a
certain sound (fr. Gk, syn = together + aisthesis = to perceive).
Synesthesia is an involuntary joining in which the real information of one sense is accompanied by a perception in another sense. In addition to being involuntary, this additional perception is regarded by the synesthete as real, often outside the body, instead of imagined in the mind's eye. It also has some other interesting features that clearly separate it from artistic fancy or purple prose. Its reality and vividness are what make synesthesia so interesting in its violation of conventional perception. Synesthesia is also fascinating because logically it should not be a product of the human brain, where the evolutionary trend has been for increasing separation of function anatomically.
R. Cytowic, "Synesthesia: A Union of the Senses" Springer-Verlag, NY (p.1)
This site provides information about the neurological condition called synesthesia. We hope to give viewers a sense of different synesthetes' personal perceptual abilities. Equally important, however, is the idea that a creative person can also use his/her unique synesthetic abilities to make a living and bring significant contributions to the world. Such talents as utilized by artists and other creative individuals are highlighted within. Because there are different forms of synesthesia, many links between the senses, we have also linked this page to others which communicate the synesthetic experience in different ways.
-1. Synesthete Perspectives
-1. Firsthand accounts, audio and text, from selected synesthetes.
-1.
-1. Virtual Synesthesia
-1. Demos and examples of phenomena like synesthesia.
-1.
-1. References and Readings
-1. Books, periodicals, people, and on-line info relating to synesthesia.
-1.
Please let us know what you think about this site.
Synesthesia
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For other uses, see Synesthesia (disambiguation).
Synesthesia (also spelled synæsthesia or synaesthesia, plural synesthesiae or synaesthesiae)—from the Ancient Greek σÏ
bloke wrote:...but then that's the type of stuff narcotics do make you see noise, and hear colors.
From what I had to learn in order to prepare and present drug enforcement cases in a "prior life," I thought hallucinogens did that sort of thing, not narcotics. Although depending on how I've seen some people react to various forms of pain killers, including narcotic pain killers, I can understand that they might have a similar effect, and of course some of the opiates and derivatives are known for such effects as well.
