Flat keys warmer?

[Chuck(G)]

...and E flat smells like cheese...

[Chuck(G)]

Oh, and in response to someone's post about Baroque tuning tendencies (the effect on "warmth" of going from A major to Ab major), the above post should convince you that for me it has nothing to do with being "cold" vs. "warm."

I believe what you're saying--and hope you're game enough to endure a little good-natured joking.

I once knew a fellow who collected modern abstract art. He was very successful in this and many of his purchases were on loan to major museums, even though his day job was a pastry chef and he barely had enough grip on reality to find his way home at night (I am not exaggerating).

When I would ask him to tell me about his latest acquisition, he'd do so in very un-visual terms, such as "loud like a traffic light". Try as I might, it was all hopeless gibberish to my sensibilities. I believe that his perception of color and light was very different from the conventional. In his case, I'm not sure it was an asset, as he wasn't in the art business and probably would have been cheated roundly if he were.

But Allen brings up a valid point--temperament counts for a lot. If you're used to perceiving and naming notes in terms of absolute pitches, unequal temperaments must play hob with your mind.

I'm very curious to find out what you make of this page of the Pachelbel Kanon done in various temperaments:

http://www.io.com/%7Ehmiller/music/warped-canon.html

[stardude82]

German and Czech brass band music is all in flat keys. Playing in a German brass band for a while I forget what a sharp is after a few long gigs.

Anyways, I've always figures its sounds darker because on a Bb, which most of the instruments, you are playing with less open and simple 1 & 2 fingerings and that darkens the sound.

[windshieldbug]

I always find flat keys handy for loosening handcuffs...

[iiipopes]

Re: woodwind fingerings -- for the clarinet and saxophone family of instruments, all of the music is written in transposed treble clef for that particular instrument. So a written three finger C on a clarinet, or a 3 finger G on a saxophone, for example, are the same written note and played with the same fingers regardless of what instrument in the family is actually being played.

The actual pitch, of course, is what differs.

[LoyalTubist]

Wasn't it Alfred Reed who would write words like warmly and coolly to show expression in his parts?

[LoyalTubist]

Nooooooo.... Definitely not Grainger. He was a great believer of the English language but he didn't use climate for expression marks. I've played lots of Grainger.

[Rick Denney]

I should also note that I do not believe that I have synesthesia, as I do not actually "see" the colors, not even in my mind's eye. Different keys merely "suggest" colors, they evoke them. However, the colors are always consistent (D major is always blue) and have remained the same ever since I became aware of them.

I don't really know where all the business about just vs. equal temperment came from.

If you think the colors are a purely emotional reaction (as opposed to a physiological synesthetic response), then listen to the Vaughan Williams 4th Symphony and tell me what color it is. You have said you associate F minor with red, but I cannot imagine redness listening to that work on a purely emotional level. For me, it would have to be blue, bordering on black.

The question about temperament has to do with the relationship of notes to one another in a chromatic instrument, when used to play music in different keys. No instrument is absolutely chromatic. Thus, in different keys, the scales vary a bit as a result of the tuning philosophy (or design characteristics) of the instrument. And instrument might have a slightly open fifth in one key, and a slightly closed fifth in another. This could greatly affect the brilliance or dullness of the sound. Thus, it's completely reasonable to bring it up in the context of your original post, whether or not you think it is relevant. Just at is is reasonable for me to explain why it's reasonably using a description you probably already know (but others might not).

Remember, an original poster does not own the conversation, any more than any one person owns a conversation at a cocktail party. Conversations sometimes go on tangents, and sometimes the tangents are more interesting to the rest of the listeners. I was previously unaware that there was such a thing as a physiological synesthesia, for example, and was interested to learn about it.

Rick "who doesn't see or sense colors, but who does sense scenes with some music" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

No instrument is absolutely chromatic.

[iiipopes]

More like infinite rather than chromatic.

[Rick Denney]

Hey, I did say "instrument". Maybe I should have added the "musical" qualifier.

Rick "hissing" Denney

[pwhitaker]

It is "Professional" though.

[windshieldbug]

But does it have a "World-Class" Sound?

[Chuck(G)]

More like infinite rather than chromatic.

Probably neither if the operator is a hung-over percussionist with the D.T.'s.

[iiipopes]

More like infinite rather than chromatic.

Probably neither if the operator is a hung-over percussionist with the D.T.'s.

Ouch! With the Theremin, that would be just too much, even for a horror flick!

[Allen]

... No instrument is absolutely chromatic. Thus, in different keys, the scales vary a bit as a result of the tuning philosophy (or design characteristics) of the instrument. And instrument might have a slightly open fifth in one key, and a slightly closed fifth in another. This could greatly affect the brilliance or dullness of the sound. ...

Rick, I've got to at least partially disagree with you on those two points. A good player will be able to play an instrument in tune, even though the centers of resonances in the instrument are not exactly on the notes the musician wants to sound. And also, the good player will be able to compensate for a lot, if not all, of the irregularities of the sound throughout the instrument's compass.

Of course, there's the other sort of player we're all familiar with, one who mashes down the buttons corresponding to the official fingering of the note, blows into the instrument, and discovers the sound the instrument makes. In those cases, the pitch is, at best, determined by the instrument. I think we're in agreement about the results there.

I have noticed considerable discussion on TubeNet about the relative ease of playing in tune for different tubas. Alternate fingerings and slide pulling gets mantioned a lot. I suspect that these posters are people who play in tune, and with whatever temperament they have been taught on any instrument. For them, saying that a tuba is more "in tune" really means it's less effort to play it in tune.

Cheers,
Allen

[ZNC Dandy]

Curse the violins though- the buggers have gotten to the point where I just can't lip up my clarinet to pitch and there seems to be no way out other than springing for a higher pitched (442) instrument. Ah well.

Why not just play a shorter barrel, or something with a different taper? Or a mouthpiece with a different facing? I think all orchestras, as well as most band need to play at least at A=442. Especially orchestras. Nothing worse than bland sounding violins.

Also words like dark, bright, warm, cold etc etc etc are all relative terms. Not so great for describing music.

[lgb&dtuba]

I think all orchestras, as well as most band need to play at least at A=442. Especially orchestras. Nothing worse than bland sounding violins.

Can't really speak to violins and orchestras, but why do you think bands should tune to A=442?

I don't think that the average musician, let alone the public could detect the difference between A=440 and A=442 in a band situation. Between 2 instruments where one was 440 and the other 442, sure. Otherwise, I don't think so.

[windshieldbug]

Do flat keys sound warmer?

In Michigan they can...

[Tom Holtz]

Can't really speak to violins and orchestras, but why do you think bands should tune to A=442?

Bands tune to B-flat!!

[/b.s.]