Flat keys warmer?

[Albertibass]

D major, D minor, Db major - blue (bright to dark)
E major, E minor, Eb major, E minor - green (bright to dark)
F# major/minor, F major/minor - red (ditto)
A major/minor, Ab major/minor - yellow (ditto)

I heard something just like this when Dr. McCashin (JMU) was the guest conducter for our county orchestra, he associated colors with the sharp keys, but when he would hear flat keys, it would be more of a grey-brown-bland color.

"Hear" or "see" ?

i guess hear, but then thats the type of stuff narcotics do make you see noise, and hear colors.

But really, i think what he meant was the texture he heard was what he saw in the his mind. i guess if it was a scene in a movie, that would be the color that the scene would take.

an example: Over the summer, i did Penn State Summer music for the past two years, and last summer in the wind ensemble, we were playing oh my jesus what anguish, and the conducter Prof. Glocke said: "it feels like we just walked into a church with Hunter-Orange Wallpaper" I guess because we werent playing the music the way it was meant. But that might not be a good example, because it is more so about how to play the music, and not really to do with the key having color associated with it.

[Richard Murrow]

The sensation of sound and color that some have been describing is called "synesthesia". It is very real, but rare. Some people can confuse this with perfect pitch, it is not. Although synesthesia can function the same as perfect pitch and does, one can have both perfect pitch and synesthesia. It is simply a cross-wiring of the senses and for many people who have this "malfuction" sight and sound receive a kind of "faulty wiring". Consequently, the pitch C will cause the color white to flash in ones mind or G might be green, etc. At least that is how it works for me. I don't think the colors are not always the same for each individual however. Remember that this is not pitch memory as in perfect pitch. Please read the info below for a better understanding:


syn-es-the-sia n. Physiol. Sensation produced at a point other than
or remote from the point of stimulation, as of a color from hearing a
certain sound (fr. Gk, syn = together + aisthesis = to perceive).

Synesthesia is an involuntary joining in which the real information of one sense is accompanied by a perception in another sense. In addition to being involuntary, this additional perception is regarded by the synesthete as real, often outside the body, instead of imagined in the mind's eye. It also has some other interesting features that clearly separate it from artistic fancy or purple prose. Its reality and vividness are what make synesthesia so interesting in its violation of conventional perception. Synesthesia is also fascinating because logically it should not be a product of the human brain, where the evolutionary trend has been for increasing separation of function anatomically.
R. Cytowic, "Synesthesia: A Union of the Senses" Springer-Verlag, NY (p.1)


This site provides information about the neurological condition called synesthesia. We hope to give viewers a sense of different synesthetes' personal perceptual abilities. Equally important, however, is the idea that a creative person can also use his/her unique synesthetic abilities to make a living and bring significant contributions to the world. Such talents as utilized by artists and other creative individuals are highlighted within. Because there are different forms of synesthesia, many links between the senses, we have also linked this page to others which communicate the synesthetic experience in different ways.
-1. Synesthete Perspectives
-1. Firsthand accounts, audio and text, from selected synesthetes.
-1.
-1. Virtual Synesthesia
-1. Demos and examples of phenomena like synesthesia.
-1.
-1. References and Readings
-1. Books, periodicals, people, and on-line info relating to synesthesia.
-1.

Please let us know what you think about this site.
Synesthesia
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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For other uses, see Synesthesia (disambiguation).
Synesthesia (also spelled synæsthesia or synaesthesia, plural synesthesiae or synaesthesiae)—from the Ancient Greek σÏ

[iiipopes]

...but then that's the type of stuff narcotics do make you see noise, and hear colors.

From what I had to learn in order to prepare and present drug enforcement cases in a "prior life," I thought hallucinogens did that sort of thing, not narcotics. Although depending on how I've seen some people react to various forms of pain killers, including narcotic pain killers, I can understand that they might have a similar effect, and of course some of the opiates and derivatives are known for such effects as well.

[Chuck(G)]

D-flat tastes like peanut butter...

[Chuck(G)]

...and E flat smells like cheese...

[Chuck(G)]

Oh, and in response to someone's post about Baroque tuning tendencies (the effect on "warmth" of going from A major to Ab major), the above post should convince you that for me it has nothing to do with being "cold" vs. "warm."

I believe what you're saying--and hope you're game enough to endure a little good-natured joking.

I once knew a fellow who collected modern abstract art. He was very successful in this and many of his purchases were on loan to major museums, even though his day job was a pastry chef and he barely had enough grip on reality to find his way home at night (I am not exaggerating).

When I would ask him to tell me about his latest acquisition, he'd do so in very un-visual terms, such as "loud like a traffic light". Try as I might, it was all hopeless gibberish to my sensibilities. I believe that his perception of color and light was very different from the conventional. In his case, I'm not sure it was an asset, as he wasn't in the art business and probably would have been cheated roundly if he were.

But Allen brings up a valid point--temperament counts for a lot. If you're used to perceiving and naming notes in terms of absolute pitches, unequal temperaments must play hob with your mind.

I'm very curious to find out what you make of this page of the Pachelbel Kanon done in various temperaments:

http://www.io.com/%7Ehmiller/music/warped-canon.html

[stardude82]

German and Czech brass band music is all in flat keys. Playing in a German brass band for a while I forget what a sharp is after a few long gigs.

Anyways, I've always figures its sounds darker because on a Bb, which most of the instruments, you are playing with less open and simple 1 & 2 fingerings and that darkens the sound.

[windshieldbug]

I always find flat keys handy for loosening handcuffs...

[iiipopes]

Re: woodwind fingerings -- for the clarinet and saxophone family of instruments, all of the music is written in transposed treble clef for that particular instrument. So a written three finger C on a clarinet, or a 3 finger G on a saxophone, for example, are the same written note and played with the same fingers regardless of what instrument in the family is actually being played.

The actual pitch, of course, is what differs.

[LoyalTubist]

Wasn't it Alfred Reed who would write words like warmly and coolly to show expression in his parts?

[LoyalTubist]

Nooooooo.... Definitely not Grainger. He was a great believer of the English language but he didn't use climate for expression marks. I've played lots of Grainger.

[Rick Denney]

I should also note that I do not believe that I have synesthesia, as I do not actually "see" the colors, not even in my mind's eye. Different keys merely "suggest" colors, they evoke them. However, the colors are always consistent (D major is always blue) and have remained the same ever since I became aware of them.

I don't really know where all the business about just vs. equal temperment came from.

If you think the colors are a purely emotional reaction (as opposed to a physiological synesthetic response), then listen to the Vaughan Williams 4th Symphony and tell me what color it is. You have said you associate F minor with red, but I cannot imagine redness listening to that work on a purely emotional level. For me, it would have to be blue, bordering on black.

The question about temperament has to do with the relationship of notes to one another in a chromatic instrument, when used to play music in different keys. No instrument is absolutely chromatic. Thus, in different keys, the scales vary a bit as a result of the tuning philosophy (or design characteristics) of the instrument. And instrument might have a slightly open fifth in one key, and a slightly closed fifth in another. This could greatly affect the brilliance or dullness of the sound. Thus, it's completely reasonable to bring it up in the context of your original post, whether or not you think it is relevant. Just at is is reasonable for me to explain why it's reasonably using a description you probably already know (but others might not).

Remember, an original poster does not own the conversation, any more than any one person owns a conversation at a cocktail party. Conversations sometimes go on tangents, and sometimes the tangents are more interesting to the rest of the listeners. I was previously unaware that there was such a thing as a physiological synesthesia, for example, and was interested to learn about it.

Rick "who doesn't see or sense colors, but who does sense scenes with some music" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

No instrument is absolutely chromatic.

[iiipopes]

More like infinite rather than chromatic.

[Rick Denney]

Hey, I did say "instrument". Maybe I should have added the "musical" qualifier.

Rick "hissing" Denney

[pwhitaker]

It is "Professional" though.

[windshieldbug]

But does it have a "World-Class" Sound?

[Chuck(G)]

More like infinite rather than chromatic.

Probably neither if the operator is a hung-over percussionist with the D.T.'s.

[iiipopes]

More like infinite rather than chromatic.

Probably neither if the operator is a hung-over percussionist with the D.T.'s.

Ouch! With the Theremin, that would be just too much, even for a horror flick!

[Allen]

... No instrument is absolutely chromatic. Thus, in different keys, the scales vary a bit as a result of the tuning philosophy (or design characteristics) of the instrument. And instrument might have a slightly open fifth in one key, and a slightly closed fifth in another. This could greatly affect the brilliance or dullness of the sound. ...

Rick, I've got to at least partially disagree with you on those two points. A good player will be able to play an instrument in tune, even though the centers of resonances in the instrument are not exactly on the notes the musician wants to sound. And also, the good player will be able to compensate for a lot, if not all, of the irregularities of the sound throughout the instrument's compass.

Of course, there's the other sort of player we're all familiar with, one who mashes down the buttons corresponding to the official fingering of the note, blows into the instrument, and discovers the sound the instrument makes. In those cases, the pitch is, at best, determined by the instrument. I think we're in agreement about the results there.

I have noticed considerable discussion on TubeNet about the relative ease of playing in tune for different tubas. Alternate fingerings and slide pulling gets mantioned a lot. I suspect that these posters are people who play in tune, and with whatever temperament they have been taught on any instrument. For them, saying that a tuba is more "in tune" really means it's less effort to play it in tune.

Cheers,
Allen