Dependent 5th valve?

bort · Post by **bort** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:08 pm

Here's a random question...

What are the pros/cons of having a dependent 5th valve on an instrument? (I have only seen it here or there in a few places, mostly seen these on Eb or F tubas, or Euphoniums, I think.)

Is the big advantage to have fewer valves to blow air through most of the time? The biggest disadvantage to have fewer 5th valve fingering options? Am I way off? What else?

Mark · Post by **Mark** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:17 pm

bort wrote:What are the pros/cons of having a dependent 5th valve on an instrument?

The only tubas I have seen with a dependent fifth valve had the fifth valve mounted in the fourth-valve tubing. This would mean that the fifth valve could only be used when the fourth valve was depressed. Most common fingerings using the fifth valve also use the fourth, so it might not be too limiting.

Cameron Gates · Post by **Cameron Gates** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:50 pm

bort wrote:Here's a random question...

What are the pros/cons of having a dependent 5th valve on an instrument? (I have only seen it here or there in a few places, mostly seen these on Eb or F tubas, or Euphoniums, I think.)

Is the big advantage to have fewer valves to blow air through most of the time? The biggest disadvantage to have fewer 5th valve fingering options? Am I way off? What else?

I've got a horn like that (CC). The only drawback was (is) learning to play Db 2-4 instead of 5-2-3. Other than that I really do not notice any difference.

smurphius · Post by **smurphius** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:02 pm

You know, I've never heard of a dependent rotor on a tuba before. Being a tuba player primarily with some secondary work on bass trombone, I'm well aware of dependent bass trombones, and prefer it being a tuba player.

Would this be something more useful on a smaller bored tuba (even smaller BBb's and CC's?

bort · Post by **bort** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:47 pm

tubashaman wrote:would the miraphone 1291 CC be considered a dependant 5th valve?

Nope...a dependent 5th valve is within the 4th valve tubing. That is, it does nothing unless the 4th valve is pressed too. Your 5th valve is independent...that is, it works on its own. Try it...play an open C, and press the 5th valve to get a flat version of a Bb.

Art Hovey · Post by **Art Hovey** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:48 pm

At the Army Conference this year there was a big old York CC tuba with a dependent 5th valve. I thought it played pretty well for a CC.

Steve Inman · Post by **Steve Inman** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:58 pm

My YEB-381 has this set-up, and the posts above have hit most of the obvious ones. I like 235 instead of 24, and you can't do that. Also, anywhere where you'd like to use an alternate fingering that includes 5, but doesn't include 4 -- you're out of luck. But 235 is the main one I miss.

Cheers,

ZNC Dandy · Post by **ZNC Dandy** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:06 pm

The Melton 198 Walter Hilgers Model, or ex-Walter Hilgers model, has this set up, as do the ex-Hilgers F tubas. As well as the Cerveny Harmonia F's.

cjk · Post by **cjk** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:14 pm

ZNC Dandy wrote:The Melton 198 Walter Hilgers Model, or ex-Walter Hilgers model, has this set up, as do the ex-Hilgers F tubas. As well as the Cerveny Harmonia F's.

The Hilgers model F tubas do not have dependent valves and neither does the Cerveny Harmonia F tuba.

The 5 valve version of the Hilgers model BBb does have a dependent 5th valve.

ZNC Dandy · Post by **ZNC Dandy** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:35 pm

cjk wrote:
ZNC Dandy wrote:The Melton 198 Walter Hilgers Model, or ex-Walter Hilgers model, has this set up, as do the ex-Hilgers F tubas. As well as the Cerveny Harmonia F's.
The Hilgers model F tubas do not have dependent valves and neither does the Cerveny Harmonia F tuba.

The 5 valve version of the Hilgers model BBb does have a dependent 5th valve.

Then what precisely is the Quint valve?

Mark · Post by **Mark** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:53 pm

ZNC Dandy wrote:Then what precisely is the Quint valve?

A seven half-step valve. oops

cjk · Post by **cjk** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:52 pm

ZNC Dandy wrote:
cjk wrote:
ZNC Dandy wrote:The Melton 198 Walter Hilgers Model, or ex-Walter Hilgers model, has this set up, as do the ex-Hilgers F tubas. As well as the Cerveny Harmonia F's.
The Hilgers model F tubas do not have dependent valves and neither does the Cerveny Harmonia F tuba.

The 5 valve version of the Hilgers model BBb does have a dependent 5th valve.
Then what precisely is the Quint valve?

You could think of it as one valve that has the combined amount of tubing of a fourth valve plus a flat whole step fifth valve. On an F tuba, a quint valve would play low Bb by itself.

cjk · Post by **cjk** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:57 pm

Mark wrote:
ZNC Dandy wrote:Then what precisely is the Quint valve?
A five half-step valve.

A quint valve is 3 1/2 steps

Toobist · Post by **Toobist** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:58 pm

Oooo! Sign me up for a quint valve on my F then! I have an 822s and love it... but it seems every day I have to decide which fingering I like for my Bb.

ZNC Dandy · Post by **ZNC Dandy** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:54 pm

Isn't the quint valve located in the 4th or 5th valve slide, thereby making it dependent?

cjk · Post by **cjk** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:56 pm

ZNC Dandy wrote:Isn't the quint valve located in the 4th or 5th valve slide, thereby making it dependent?

Nope.

ZNC Dandy · Post by **ZNC Dandy** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:07 pm

[quote="cjk"][quote="ZNC Dandy"]Isn't the quint valve located in the 4th or 5th valve slide, thereby making it dependent?[/quote]

Nope.[/quote]

I guess i'm an idiot. Thanks for the clarification

MartyNeilan · Post by **MartyNeilan** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:26 pm

The quint valve is a perfect 5th, hence the name quint; it lowers the open pitch from F to a Bb. It is fully independent. The flat half step valve is the left hand valve above the 1st valve; the quint valve is the valve on the other side of the tuning slide. Both serve very different but useful purposes and can be used alone or together.

bort · Post by **bort** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:20 pm

Maybe I missed it in this...but what are the real advantages?

Or, is this just another "it doesn't matter, do what suits you best" topic like BBb/CC, lacquer/silver, etc/etc...

Cameron Gates · Post by **Cameron Gates** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:06 pm

bort wrote:Maybe I missed it in this...but what are the real advantages?

Or, is this just another "it doesn't matter, do what suits you best" topic like BBb/CC, lacquer/silver, etc/etc...

Real advantages? The only one I can think of is one less bump/restriction/moving part in the airstream of 95% of the notes that are played.

I was skeptical about the set up due to the fact that the 5th valve tubing is the same bore size as the 4th. On all my other horns the 5th is larger, and in my pea-sized brain that means low F, Eb, D and Db are more open. Right? NOT. I really can not tell any difference. It is not any more "stuffy" than my other horns in that register. Plus it looks cool. THAT is the most important thing.

I just have to remember to play Db 2&4. Playing Db 23 and FIVE on this horn in a Db chord is not something to be proud of. Thank goodness for semi-hip section mates

.

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