Tuba re-model

pierso20 · Post by **pierso20** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:17 pm

Ok, so I have this big Mirafone (the 1290 I believe....whatever th early model of the 1291 is). Anyway, I LOVE this horn to pieces...that is, it plays very well. Has excellent intonation, great sound. The thing is, there's a lot of cosmetic issues. I plan on keeping this horn around, but I need some work done on it.

Such as, dents out, bell fixed up...basically what I want is my Horn to come back looking as good as humanly possible. Then plating is another issue. Whether or not plating actually DOES affect the sound is debateable....BUT basically, I wanna take this old thing and make it new.

I am in the Michigan area. Who around here would do such a thing and how can i contact him/her?

Also, if anyone has suggestions or comment, of course they are welcome. Thanks.

MartyNeilan · Post by **MartyNeilan** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:57 pm

Is this my old one (reversed ring on 2nd slide, ring on side of 4th, bottom bow previously removed)?

tubari · Post by **tubari** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:21 pm

Brooke,

Not sure where you are in Michigan... near Lansing? Feel free to contact me about repairs.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:21 pm

The question is not whether it has a different tone. The question is does it have an audibly different tone. On something as small as a trumpet or cornet, you can tell the difference. Schilke did extensive research in this area on trumpets. Basically, his conclusions were on the difference between silver plate and older thicker spray lacquers, and concluded that silver made no difference and lacquer definitely made a difference when compared to raw brass. See the Schilke Loyalist web pages. But on something as large as a tuba, the thickness of the lacquer or silverplate, especially on newer instruments with newer very thin epoxy and/or electro-sprayed laquers that are almost as thin as silverplate, it has much less impact on the tone than do all the other variables of construction: brass alloy and thickness at whatever point from receiver to bell rim, valve type, ports, geometry, wrap, leadpipe, bell rim, etc., ad nauseaum.

pierso20 · Post by **pierso20** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:23 pm

Well....I'm not sure. haha. I know that there was definetely some work. The 1st and 4th slides were moved "up"...so well within hand reach. The 4th slide definetely has ring put on that wasn't there before. The 2nd slide jas a ring....but I thought It was always there. Not sure about the bow. But it could be your horn. There was definetely work done. It's a great horn. Definetely worth making look as pretty as it sounds.

pierso20 · Post by **pierso20** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:31 pm

iiipopes wrote:Basically, his conclusions were on the difference between silver plate and older thicker spray lacquers, and concluded that silver made no difference and lacquer definitely made a difference when compared to raw brass.

Ok. So my horn is already lacqured. What do you think could happen if I had that stripped to raw brass and then silver plated? man....I think I gotta talk to some "experts" lol...

ASTuba · Post by **ASTuba** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:38 pm

Ok, I'm going to take the bait and jump in here.

There is no difference between lacquer and silver. Period, end of discussion. Nowadays, the lacquers and plating that is done is so thin, that there's not a ton of added weight/mass to an instrument to change playing characteristics.

I will agree that on something older, that plating makes a HUGE difference, because they were plating on much more heavily than we do today. That is why so many more professional tubas from older time frames were silver plated.

You can't go wrong either way here, but the more important thing will be the quality of work. If you need some suggestions on that, let me know.

pierso20 · Post by **pierso20** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:41 pm

What I'm not sure of is what sort of lacquer is on my horn. The thing is though....i really wish she was pretty. haha.

Thanks though

I actually had been in contact with some people at Anderson Silver Plating. They do instrument silver plating work for major companies as well as private individuals. Any knowledge of this company or other companies I should look at?

{One company I found would do a candy blue lacquer on a tuba...HAHA I would love to have an old 3 valve Eb with black lacquer and gold flames...for shits and giggles.}

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:43 pm

The Physics of Inner Brass and the Acoustical Effects of
Various Materials and Their Treatment
By Renold O. Schilke

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:49 pm

pierso20 wrote:... Ok. So my horn is already lacqured. What do you think could happen if I had that stripped to raw brass .....

Save your money on the silver plating. The only thing for certain is that raw brass looks better than scratched lacquer. Strip it and play it as it is.

pierso20 · Post by **pierso20** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:57 pm

well, silver plating, believe it or not for my horn *this was a recent quote* was only $500...assuming all other repairs had been previously done....now to me......that is a deal because what separates my horn from some others I see is the cosmetics. Though, obviously since I created this thread, I am not taking this decision lightly. Plus, though I agree raw brass is better than scratched lacquer...I think it's still ugly.

Thanks for imput so far.

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:13 pm

pierso20 wrote:well, silver plating, believe it or not for my horn *this was a recent quote* was only $500...

I wasn't trying to be augumentive. I've had horns silver-plated for some of my customers and I can tell you that silver-plating is certainly not what it used to be. It's only a couple of molecules thick. A light buffing (or a couple of polishings will reveal raw brass. Aside from being silver (colored) for a while, it's not going to have any affect on the timbre of the horn.

pierso20 · Post by **pierso20** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:20 pm

lol...yes...that is why, at least I for sure, wear clothing.

Is silver plating REALLY that thin? Or does it depend who performs the task. Because, I mean obviously, all horns will wear on the finish eventually, but even new silver plated horns don't lose finish that quick. lol

But I do, of course, see the point....but then again, why clean your room when it's just going to get messy again. haha

Thanks for the advice though.

pierso20 · Post by **pierso20** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:45 pm

lol...nice story

I wouldn't want to have been the one stripping that thing....

Well, I'm not gonna lie I just gotta have what looks good to me. lol Or at least have no scratches and worn lacquer..lol

So a some hundred dollars to have a horn that at least looks new? that is fine by me. I just gotta get other things fixed first...before I can dream of a sexy tuba.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:27 am

Why is it that horn players don't care what their instrument looks like but tuba players do? As a matter of fact, a horn-playing friend told me that the best-playing horn he'd ever had the pleasure of trying out looked like a refugee from a middle-school bandroom.

He said that if it had been for sale, he'dve bought it without a second thought.

tofu · Post by **tofu** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:53 am

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:39 am

Chuck(G) wrote:Why is it that horn players don't care what their instrument looks like but tuba players do?

I suppose because our instrument are rather more noticeable. Of course we may be more vain?

tofu wrote:I'd rather spend my time playing and not polishing.

Precisely why I go for lacquered tubas!

pierso20 · Post by **pierso20** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:51 am

you both have some good points.

I do really like this horn. Though I do find it interesting that horn players don't care what their horns look like...I've seen so many in horrible shape....but cosmetically though. Usually dent free. Which is my first task. Plating my horn is a secondary option when I'm finished with all other repairs.

Anyway, the ease of lacquer will definetely be noted!

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:42 am

bloke wrote:1/ How much of these horns do you actually SEE...??

Well, when Philly was in town and played the Mozart Sinfonia Concertante with the horn and woodwinds standing in front of the orchestra, my wife noticed right off that only about 60% of the instrument the horn player was using still had any silver plating on it.

And I'm certain that you've been asked by a horn player with a perfectly intact instrument to please strip the lacquer from the horn--or at least the bell.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:03 pm

pierso20 wrote:Ok. So my horn is already lacqured. What do you think could happen if I had that stripped to raw brass and then silver plated? man....I think I gotta talk to some "experts" lol...

Your wallet would be lighter by at least $2000.

It's funny, but I've seen professional soloists perform from all parts of the world or a period of 30+ years, and they fall into two camps. 1.) Those with a trusted old instrument that had been repaired several times, or customized, and therefore had no lacquer, and 2.) those who are sponsored by an instrument maker and have the newest, shiniest horns available, most of which are lacquered. In general, the second group tends to more consistently include higher level performers than the first (note careful choice of words, please). Correlation does not prove causality. The second group was probably sponsored in the first place because they tended to be the better group.

Never in decades of listening to tuba players of all abilities have I ever thought, "Gee, that guy might sound better on a silver instrument" or "That guy would break through to the next level if only he would get that lacquer off his tuba."

Rick "who likes the look of silver instruments" Denney

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