bad reply

[ken k]

So I am working on booking a gig, which is not really a gig I am crazy about doing but as bloke says, "a bad gig is better than a good job." So the guy was a bit put off by the requested fee, which was a discounted fee, since I knew they were working on a tight budget. Anyway I replied thusly. I hope I didn't offend the old man and blow the gig, although i really don't care too much about this particular gig.



"I am not sure what you mean by how many numbers. If you mean members of the group, we have 5 members. But we are not an amateur community band. We are a highly trained and experienced professional ensemble. Believe it or not, this is a discounted price. Also a performance like this will take much preparation and consultation with your ministers. We do not simply show up and play.

Have you had an electrician or a plumber come and work at your house lately?

Or have you had work done to your car lately?

Ken Kemmerer"

So what do you think? Can I kiss it goodbye? i usually am not this sarcastic, but I guess he caught me aat the wrong time.

ken "oh well..." k

[WoodSheddin]

I would have left out the plumber bit even if true. I would have offered him the full price since he asked.

Might also tell him you can pass along his contact info to some local high school or college kids to see if they might be willing to accept his lowball offer.

[quinterbourne]

I think it's good to mention the investment we as musicians have put into our craft. Mention our instrument purchases (trumpet players spend just as much, if not more, than we do - Bb, C, Eb, pic, flugel...) as well as education: if most members of the group have degrees (esp. music) mention that, or even just mention lessons.

Also, say that the sheet music you play off of had to be purchased. You also have all of those "pre-gigging tightening the ensemble" rehearsals... travel, etc.

All of these "EXPENSES" have to be spread across all the gigs we do. That's why it costs so much money. That's also why it costs so much to go to the dentist, or doctor. Their fee covers expenses too.

You could also mention union scale. Assuming you're asking for a fee close to scale, mention that. State your fee is the minimum possible under the rules of your union (they don't need to know that you may not actually be in the union though, the minimums set by the union are expected to be followed by non-union members as well).

If they go elsewhere, then that's ok. If you were to offer or accept a fee that is too low, you do the rest of us a disservice. I used to always be under the philosophy that "any gig is better than no gig" and that mentality really hurts all musicians.

Congrats for having some backbone. I would suggest next time, perhaps, being more "professional sounding" in how you present your argument.

I have had clients figure out exactly how much their offer gives each of us per hour (ie $10 per hour) to justify their obscenely low offer. That's what you pay your gardener or pool boy... they did not make an "investment" into their craft (if you can call it that).

[Biggs]

I don't have much gigging experience, but my guess would be that you will still have a job. Even if the person you're dealing with isn't knowledgeable about the process of creating musical excellence, he will understand the basic concept of "you get what you pay for."

If this person wants a certain level of excellence, he will find that great performances do not come cheaply after checking the rates of similar groups.

[tofu]

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[lgb&dtuba]

I wouldn't let his low ball offer get me upset. It's called negotiating the price. Trying to get you to justify your price is just part of the game. And quite frankly, if he can get you to play that game then he is driving the negotiations.

If I wasn't willing to negotiate and come down on my price then I would have simply stated that the quoted price was was already my discounted price for his type of organization and let it go at that. He's either going to accept that price and hire you or not.

Trying to justify the price just makes you look like you don't even believe it's a good price and are trying to rationalize it.

Good luck.

Jim Wagner

[greggu]

Some people might be ignorant of what it really takes to produce good quality music/entertainment. Ignorant isn't a dirty word, but it requires education to remedy it. You owe it to him and other professionals to educate him. He'll find out what he'll get for his money, but all these points that others are making about the reasons for price and value are pertinent. The problem with a lot of people today is too much smarting off. The fee you are attempting to charge should include a professional gentleman from start to finish; no matter what the circumstance.

[jonesbrass]

This is definitely an interesting topic. I don't know if I would spend much time or effort on "justifying" the charge. What makes us think our audience really cares what degrees we have, practice time we put in, expensive instruments we own, etc? I'd hazard a guess that most people don't care. They care that you'll come and play and professionally entertain in whatever manner they want. Be a gentleman, be respectful, but expect the same in return. If she or he wants to nickle and dime you, politely refuse to play for that amount. If they want low cost, they should find some high school kids or buy a CD. They'll get what they pay for. Just my 0.02, and bear in mind that I don't depend on music to make a living any more.

[Uncle Buck]

I wouldn't let his low ball offer get me upset. It's called negotiating the price. Trying to get you to justify your price is just part of the game. And quite frankly, if he can get you to play that game then he is driving the negotiations.

If I wasn't willing to negotiate and come down on my price then I would have simply stated that the quoted price was was already my discounted price for his type of organization and let it go at that. He's either going to accept that price and hire you or not.

Trying to justify the price just makes you look like you don't even believe it's a good price and are trying to rationalize it.

Good luck.

Jim Wagner

I'll second that excellent advice. You don't have any more right to be offended by a lowball offer than a potential client has to be offended by your offered rate.

[Alex Reeder]

You don't have any more right to be offended by a lowball offer than a potential client has to be offended by your offered rate.

There's some wisdom here- think of this from both perspectives.

[lgb&dtuba]

Again, brevity, nearly always, is best:

The only thing that I MIGHT have added (to address the comments about price) might have been:

I recall, in our conversation, you expressing some concern about our fee. If our fee is outside an alloted budget, I believe I could locate some students who could perform for less.

If I was the customer on the receiving end of such a comment I'd take it as pretty condescending if not outright insulting. You wouldn't get hired. Not then and not in the future.

It's better, I think, to simply state your price and if it's higher than what the customer wants to pay then thank him for considering you and ask him to consider you again in the future.

If the customer finds out that your price was better that he expected, that he cannot find a better or acceptable group for less than your price, then he'll be back if you haven't driven him away with an unprofessional comment or bad attitude.

[tuba kitchen]

We have this problem all the time with our 4tet. we have decided to give "low budget" gigs the name "promo gig". in this situation we play for much less $$ than our normal price. we ask for cash so we don't have to pay taxes on it, we play less and arrange the gig so we don't have to be present for a long period of time. we also try to distribute cards and band infos. also, we recently decided to add the clause in the contract that if up until week before the gig we get a better paying gig we can cancel.

otherwise, we don't make any compromises. we're good, spend a lot of time and effort on our program, and it's worth all the $$ we charge.

in my vast experience as a free-lance musician, one is usually treated accordingly in relation to the $$ one earns.

[lgb&dtuba]

That strategy has virtually NEVER failed me when a customer has inquired about repair work or purchasing instruments.

When customers have overtly expressed pricing concerns, I started giving them names of local or out-of-town competitors who "might have something to offer for less money".

The part I was really reacting to was:

I believe I could locate some students who could perform for less.

Would you refer your customer to a "student" repair person?

I don't want to make too big a thing out of that. It is all in the presentation. There may well be times where just any low cost to freebie source would be ok.

After all, the local dental college has plenty of customers who are entrusting their dental work to students. Of course, they are supervised in that case, not amateur dentists in a garage

[tofu]

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[Rick Denney]

From my business perspective, Joe has actually hit the nail on the head, and others have said good things.

It is a negotiation. Don't play the game if you don't want to negotiate. Always keep it positive. Never complain. Never compare. Never say bad things about the competition. And NEVER whine.

And remember that the customer sets the price, but the price the customer sets doesn't necessarily get the product the customer wants.

Thus: The complaint about Bloke's recommendation of students diminishes if it could be worded a little differently to remove any offense. "We know of some good students in the area who could probably meet your needs and who are able to charge rates that fall within your budget. I would be happy to put you in touch with them." That would tell me that you simply won't work for less than what you offered. It also tells me that if I want a professional, that's the price I'll pay. And it gives me an acceptable (though not optimal) option if my budget really is limited.

Also: Bloke's first suggested wording, which emphasizes the quality and services provided. "Our musicians will bring x, y, and z instruments and will work closely with your staff and invest the necessary preparation time to help make your event a success. Our price is $this. We would love to play for your and look forward to your confirmation. We need the confirmation by such-and-such date to make sure the musicians are available." Clarity is always best and sounds most professional.

Comparing musicians to other professionals (or non-professionals) just sounds like whining.

Rick "who would be a better salesman if he listened to his own advice" Denney

[Rick Denney]

also, we recently decided to add the clause in the contract that if up until week before the gig we get a better paying gig we can cancel.

Even for a "promo" gig, this is unprofessional. Even if you are giving your services for FREE, it's unprofessional. The ONE thing a professional ALWAYS displays is reliability--they do what it takes to make sure the gig is covered.

We all know pros who have taken cabs the the site of broken-down cars, hired (at their own expense) subs to cover for them when they are sick, and on and on. That's the mark of a pro. An amateur might be able to rationalize blowing off a gig if a better offer comes along, though in those ways I try to behave professionally even when I'm an amateur.

Rick "calling it like he sees it" Denney

[Rick Denney]

note: There actually MAY NOT BE a "possible" gig here for ANYone: The old man may have anticipated an expense of c. $25/person and budgeted for such.

Here's some wording for this situation: Frankly, I'm not sure I know of anyone who will be able to meet your needs for the budget you have in mind. I suspect it would take at least $X to get local students able to perform adequately, and our price for professional service is $Y. Please let me know if I can be of further service.

Note that when you say this, you are giving up the gig. But as a business decision, I'd rather have no gig than one that costs more to perform than it earns.

If you negotiate, always negotiate scope as well as fee. If the guy says "I can't pay that much", offer to provide reduced services--fewer people if that's appropriate, shorter work hours if that works--as a means of lowering the price. That way, you are not cutting your rates, but you are still trying to meet the guy's needs.

Rick "not good at sales but much better at negotiating contracts" Denney

[tubatooter1940]

Sounds to me like the job is gone-but you never know until a date certain. Keep beating the bushes and find more gigs of all kinds.
Those who play for the music and fun over cash consider fun gigs best at any price.
We donate an evening of music once a year to the University of Alabama. They don't need the money but the celebrities and fine chow line are memorable. Women who gravitate toward that income level look amazing.

[Steve Inman]

I agree with much of what has been said. You are negotiating and you may also be educating the customer. You should do so without a hint of condescending.

Always keep it professional. Always keep it positive. Know in advance what your bottom dollar is, and stick with that. Know in advance if you will make exceptions to your minimum fee, and why. Provide the discount if the customer meets the requirement. Explain the benefits of using your group. Be as helpful as you can. Etc.

You may not get the gig, but if you' negative in any respect, you MAY get negative press / recommendations from the customer who didn't use you: "No, Bob, don't use them -- they're a bunch of jerks."

When I have a positive experience with a vendor I may or may not think to recommend them to others. But when someone provides me with a poor experience, I'm primed to warn friends, family, neighbors and even low-grade enemies to avoid such a service provider. Work to avoid that situation if at all possible.

Cheers,

[BopEuph]

This reminds me of a similar experience I had not with a performing gig, but an engraving one. A professor at a school I just finished came to me and told me he needed a rush job of a big band score because the composer's computer (the composer was another professor at the school) crashed and all that was left was the score. I said sure, and he asked me to quote it. When I looked at the score, it was a big one; an $800-1200 dollar job easily.

This professor told me he doesn't have much money for the chart, and asked that I discounted the job. I told him 500. I wish I had a picture of his face. This professor was used to getting free work from students because we are on scholarship and should be thankful for that (a real quote of the department). He told me I was a ripoff and that I would never work in this town for that price. The funny thing about that was that I have been an established copyist for a long time in the area and am the composition professor's personal engraver.

I explained the cost of the job, and he wouldn't take it. He told me another student would do the job for $200. I knew who he was talking about, and is by no stretch of the imagination a copyist/engraver. I didn't mention any of that, but I did say I'm sorry, but you get what you pay for.

I find out later that all he was willing to pay was that 200, and he was just hoping I would quote it, but was actively trying to see what trouble would arise.

The moral of the story here, though is that I still work as a copyist around the area, and have been accumulating a rather large amount of clients considering the nature of the job, and it makes enough to pay rent and eat. I did, however, have future problems with said professor. I needed something done at the school, and he simply said, "you didn't scratch my back, so I'm not scratching yours." It directly affected auditions for the jazz ensembles (more than obvious, when I have been the top gigging bassist around the area and these guys are still having trouble reading charts) and caused some friction my last semester at the school. Long story short, I felt backed into a corner and don't want that to ever happen to me again, but don't want to be screwed over, either.

Nick