Octaves in Symphony Fantastique?

[windshieldbug]

My understanding of common practice of the time was to write for C and Bb ophecleide, taking advantage of the best notes on both instruments. My performance experience has borne this out.

[ZNC Dandy]

We learned about it in music literature and we studied the score to the movement V...the witches sabbath.

Berlioz wrote for 2 ophecliedes, generally in octave unision.

The version you have might be a modern arrangement or a condensed tuba part, because many orchestras dont want to cut the cost of another tubist, and octaves could be put in another instrument or left out all toghether in some occurences

Thats my 2 cents

I've never heard of octave unison before either. Give a look at Berlioz Memoirs, and his Treatise on Orchestration Its a wealth of information and insight into this piece. Give a listen to a recording on opriginal instruments also. Ophecleide's can sound quite visceral. Its kind of cool actually.

[jonesbrass]

generally in octave unision.

What is octave unison? Something is either in unison or not.

Good point. By that strict definition, I can think that most "unison" tuba parts are, in fact, NOT. LOL.

[ZNC Dandy]

Let me clarify for those non music majors on here

When you are playing in unison regarding a band, you are all playing an F, but I should have use the term Octave Doubling, which is it for the most part

Instead of nagging on that, as I had mentioned is a condensed tuba part where the instrument parts are combined

People on here seem to only tear apart, instead of give credit and help others

Doubling the octave to me would again say that two people are playing the same note? Do you mean splitting the octave? Where one player plays it up or down the octave?

Clarifying for the non music majors on here huh? I suppose that if someone isn't currently enrolled in a university pursuing a music degree then the opinion of said person would be null and void by your logic?

[Mark]

Let me clarify for those non music majors on here

Insert your favorite quote here: _____________________

[Mark]

I played the fifth movement a few months ago for a kids concert (alternating between both tuba parts and 3rd trombone, all on my bass bone!). The part I had didn't have the octave C jump (C C B Bb A Ab G) near the end of the 5th movement, but I have seen this in other parts.

Is the octave thing the correct way?

The first tuba part does make the jump from the C in the staff to the C above the staff. I have three different editions of this part and they are all written this way.

Also, I have heard that some people do the Dies Irae in octaves (or more!). Is there some sort of historical point behind this, or does it just sound cool?

It is common for the tubas to play this in octaves. The first tuba plays it as written and the second tuba plays it one octave lower. However, this is a decision for the conductor to make. Gene Pokorny talks a little bit about this on his Orchestral Excerpts CD.

[sc_curtis]

Let me clarify for those non music majors on here

When you are playing in unison regarding a band, you are all playing an F, but I should have use the term Octave Doubling, which is it for the most part

Instead of nagging on that, as I had mentioned is a condensed tuba part where the instrument parts are combined

People on here seem to only tear apart, instead of give credit and help others

Ok, what? You wrote something that wasn't fully explained and seemed somewhat confusing, even for those of us with MASTERS degress. And then you pout because people didn't understand what you MEANT?

HUH?!?!?

[Biggs]

Let me clarify for those non music majors on here

When you are playing in unison regarding a band, you are all playing an F, but I should have use the term Octave Doubling, which is it for the most part

Instead of nagging on that, as I had mentioned is a condensed tuba part where the instrument parts are combined

People on here seem to only tear apart, instead of give credit and help others

Don't fret. The WAAAAAAAAAAAAAmbulance is on it's way.

[Mark]

So, what I can do about it? I can post what im experiencing and what i have been taught since im in depth studying tuba, for those on here who try to lead others astray

viewtopic.php?p=176777&highlight=#176777

[Mark]

And sadly to say, there was a guy a few months ago said he didnt like tuba solos or anysuch and was not a tuba player

I assume you are referring to Chuck Jackson. You need to go back an reread that thread, you'll need make use of all of your limited reading comprehension skills.

[Mark]

and mark, some people prefer CCs. Professional BBbs are actually a newer thing in America. about a decade ago, there werent any fabulous horns pitched in BBb.

Well, gee... I guess all the pros in the U.S. who were playing BBbs ten years ago just weren't as sharp as you. Let's not even consider all the (apparently substandard) pros in Germany.

[windshieldbug]

Not to say that this has gotten a little off topic...

I've performed this twice on ophicleide, both times with modern orchestra. In my opinion, you need the unison in the Dies Irae to cut through the ensemble decently. The last time I did it we had a C AND a Bb, and there is something to having the resonant notes on each horn support each other.

Another interesting fact is that parts lie in the very best parts on the horns, and both project well and are easy to articulate.

And they definitely add to the mood of the movement, evoking a very church/serpent sound.

[windshieldbug]

Ophicleides usually have 11 keys in the later 1800's. Earlier models that are chromatically usable had 9 or 10 keys.

Unfortunately, the only way to learn is to find one to practice with, since the fingering is fairly unique to the instrument.

The Bb is the same length as a euphonium, and uses a very similar size shank. I used a Bach 6 1/2 AL or a Bach 3 tenor sized mouthpiece.

If you want to get an idea of the sound, and also a full Boehm system to work with, I've had success using a bari sax with a brass mouthpiece INSIDE the neck. Wrong key but right idea. You need to use a very centered buzz.

[Mark]

IT IS JUST PLAYER PREFERENCE.....a player should play on what they sound best on, rather it be BBb or CC, 6/4 or 3/4, piston or rotary, miraphone or perantucci, ect

viewtopic.php?p=176777&highlight=#176777

[Mark]

No mark, it was not chuck, and I read and comprehend just fine, im actually on a larger academic scholarship than music, for heavens sakes.

I just reread that thread and Chuck is the only contributor that had anything negative to say about tuba solos.

[Biggs]

Some people havent played since HS, geesh.

Lucky bastards!


All kidding aside, I would encourage people who haven't played since high school to check out and participate in this forum. It offers a great starting point for anyone looking to get involved.

I would never cite Wikipedia in any of my work, but it can turn me on to and point me in the direction of information I need or wish to explore further. I think Tubenet serves a similar purpose for tuba and euphonium players.

[DaTubaKid]

How is that a better idea? Certainly it would be ideal to both join a community band and participate in discussions on tubenet?

But what about those who don't have a community band near them? Should they be left out to dry, not even given a chance to have anything to do with the tuba again?

What about those who don't know of a community band in there area (but there happens to be a post on tubenet about one...)? Or those who don't know about recitals near them (and there happens to be a post on tubenet about one...)?

You're saying that anyone who isn't a tuba expert should not be participating in this community. By that, I don't think either of us should be here.

[DaTubaKid]

And if they can't? You still condemn them?

[DaTubaKid]

To you as a performance major, it is about performing.

To an educator, it isn't necessarily about him/her personally playing tuba, but teaching it to others.

If a brass repairman played tuba in high school no longer has time to play regularly, should he removed from the community even though he repairs tubas on a daily basis?

You make lots of general statements that work for you, but not for every situation.

P.S. If it weren't midnight, I would yell at us both for posting this frequently instead of practicing, but alas, it be late...

[DaTubaKid]

All kidding aside, I would encourage people who haven't played since high school to check out and participate in this forum. It offers a great starting point for anyone looking to get involved.

i have a better idea biggs, all those people who havent played since HS join a community band, and make a BIGGER community of tuba players throughtout the world

That statement seems to clearly say that you think anyone who is not well traversed in the ways of the tuba should not participate in this forum.

Someone mentioned it early, I'm too lay to go find out who, but people who give crudy advice typically are not left uncorrected. If I tried to convince someone that York #3 was actually a B natural tuba, more often than not, someone would step in and post a food picture.

As far as your last statement, I don't completely understand what you're trying to get at, but it sounds like you're making another blanket generalization. A teacher does not have to be a good performer or even a consistent performer to be an amazing teacher. He certainly can be and it won't necessarily hurt him, but he doesn't HAVE to. You CAN observe from the players viewpoint and you CAN benefit both fields, but it doesn't HAVE to.