Hey guys/gals...
I'm looking for a bigger mouthpiece. I currently play on a PT-83 and I like it a lot, but I need something to help bring my pitch down. I have been offered by Sam Gnagey to have a longer tuning slide made but I'm happy with the tuning of the horn (thanks for the offer though). I have this problem on every tuba that I play. I just tend to play sharp. It's not a matter of my embouchure because we (my prof. and I) fixed that my freshman year and I'm really happy with the way my tone is now. I have been lookin into larger PT's but I would just like some other suggestions before I make up my mind.
My prof. suggested I get a larger mouthpiece by the way...
Suggestions for a bigger mouthpiece...
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Arkietuba
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BriceT
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Tom
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I guess I'll go against the grain here and say that I do not think obtaining a "bigger" mouthpiece is going to fix your pitch problems, especially depending on how much you're trying to bring the pitch down.
It sound as though you have an ear training or mental pitch perception issue (or perhaps some kind of physical trait we are not aware of here on tubenet) that causes you to hear pitches sharp and subsequently play them sharp. I don't think any mouthpiece can compensate for that.
Before everyone jumps on my case, let me say that I've played around a lot with mouthpieces throughout my playing career and although I did not realize it immediately, (see below for remarks on the psychological side of all of this) mouthpieces don't correct your natural tendencies, and usually do not fix intonation tendencies of particular tubas (as checked on strobe tuners) when appropriate sized mouthpieces are used on appropriate tubas (a PT-83 on a contrabass tuba is "appropriate").
I believe the psychological effect of changing mouthpieces is HUGE and that if people want to believe their latest choice of mouthpiece has fixed all of their problems, then of course it will have fixed all their problems.
Sometimes players do initially experience positive results in real, measurable ways (ie pitch goes down on a tuner). I wonder how much of that is psychological. I personally believe much of it is and has to do with renewed focus and concentration on "finding out" if the new equipment can fix the problem. I question if the new mouthpiece is a permanent fix. Does the mouthpiece still "work" after 2 months? 6 months? a year? or do your natural tendencies creep back into your playing?
I personally think you need to back up and work on adjusting to play in tune as a player even though you say your embouchure is "fixed." This is, without question, NOT the easy way out (it takes slow, methodical work) but is, IMHO, the was to address these issues since you've identified yourself (and not the tuba) as the problem.
OR
You could have your instrument modified to fit your pitch tendencies. A longer main slide, among other devices, might just be the quick way around these issues for you if you and your teacher are pleased with your tone otherwise.
It sound as though you have an ear training or mental pitch perception issue (or perhaps some kind of physical trait we are not aware of here on tubenet) that causes you to hear pitches sharp and subsequently play them sharp. I don't think any mouthpiece can compensate for that.
Before everyone jumps on my case, let me say that I've played around a lot with mouthpieces throughout my playing career and although I did not realize it immediately, (see below for remarks on the psychological side of all of this) mouthpieces don't correct your natural tendencies, and usually do not fix intonation tendencies of particular tubas (as checked on strobe tuners) when appropriate sized mouthpieces are used on appropriate tubas (a PT-83 on a contrabass tuba is "appropriate").
I believe the psychological effect of changing mouthpieces is HUGE and that if people want to believe their latest choice of mouthpiece has fixed all of their problems, then of course it will have fixed all their problems.
Sometimes players do initially experience positive results in real, measurable ways (ie pitch goes down on a tuner). I wonder how much of that is psychological. I personally believe much of it is and has to do with renewed focus and concentration on "finding out" if the new equipment can fix the problem. I question if the new mouthpiece is a permanent fix. Does the mouthpiece still "work" after 2 months? 6 months? a year? or do your natural tendencies creep back into your playing?
I personally think you need to back up and work on adjusting to play in tune as a player even though you say your embouchure is "fixed." This is, without question, NOT the easy way out (it takes slow, methodical work) but is, IMHO, the was to address these issues since you've identified yourself (and not the tuba) as the problem.
OR
You could have your instrument modified to fit your pitch tendencies. A longer main slide, among other devices, might just be the quick way around these issues for you if you and your teacher are pleased with your tone otherwise.
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Chen
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One question on lengthening the slide: doesn't extending the main tuning slide make the horn lower-pitched? Suppose he does that and now plays in tune (as far as a tuner is concerned) doesn't that mean he's now actually playing high and off the horn's pitch center? What effects would that have on the sound quality?
While I agree a lot of switching mouthpieces is psychological and possibly random/mistaken, I also think it is important to find a mouthpiece does not hold the player back, let the lips work with wind and produce the desired vibration. This is an issue every brass player must go through his/her career but must also remember to keep things in perspective (i.e. player plays the mouthpiece, not the other way around). While there could be one million reasons why OP's playing sharp, his teacher already said to try a bigger mouthpiece. So now OP's going that direction, I'd just warn the OP to not go too much larger at once. I wouldn't even recommend OP get the PT-48 that his tuba buddy has. The PT-84 is not really a small mouthpiece, roughly comparable to a Bach 18. I think the OP should try going just one size larger, not something drastically larger like the Parke.
There are much valuable information in this website that I wholeheartedly recommend anyone who has concerns about mouthpieces give it some serious reading.
http://storkcustom.com/
Edit: sorry I misread - OP's actually using a PT-83 which is a medium large mouthpiece, not the PT-84 that's comparable to the Bach 18.
While I agree a lot of switching mouthpieces is psychological and possibly random/mistaken, I also think it is important to find a mouthpiece does not hold the player back, let the lips work with wind and produce the desired vibration. This is an issue every brass player must go through his/her career but must also remember to keep things in perspective (i.e. player plays the mouthpiece, not the other way around). While there could be one million reasons why OP's playing sharp, his teacher already said to try a bigger mouthpiece. So now OP's going that direction, I'd just warn the OP to not go too much larger at once. I wouldn't even recommend OP get the PT-48 that his tuba buddy has. The PT-84 is not really a small mouthpiece, roughly comparable to a Bach 18. I think the OP should try going just one size larger, not something drastically larger like the Parke.
There are much valuable information in this website that I wholeheartedly recommend anyone who has concerns about mouthpieces give it some serious reading.
http://storkcustom.com/
Edit: sorry I misread - OP's actually using a PT-83 which is a medium large mouthpiece, not the PT-84 that's comparable to the Bach 18.
Last edited by Chen on Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Arkietuba
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Just to clarify a few things...
I DO play in tune. I have been told as far back as 10th grade that I play pretty much every note in tune. I just have to adjust and lip down all the time and it's kinda tiring. I just want to play in the center of my pitch w/out having to adjust all the time. Oh, and my prof. didn't really give me any suggestions. I also play on one of Sam Gnagey's horns. It's a combo of a 1920's Holton Eb Bell (19") and a King CC (not sure on the model, but the one that's well known...lol) from the 80's.
I DO play in tune. I have been told as far back as 10th grade that I play pretty much every note in tune. I just have to adjust and lip down all the time and it's kinda tiring. I just want to play in the center of my pitch w/out having to adjust all the time. Oh, and my prof. didn't really give me any suggestions. I also play on one of Sam Gnagey's horns. It's a combo of a 1920's Holton Eb Bell (19") and a King CC (not sure on the model, but the one that's well known...lol) from the 80's.
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Tom
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Maybe I'm confused here...Arkietuba wrote:Just to clarify a few things...
I DO play in tune. I have been told as far back as 10th grade that I play pretty much every note in tune. I just have to adjust and lip down all the time and it's kinda tiring. I just want to play in the center of my pitch w/out having to adjust all the time.
That's different than what you indicated originally.
Saying that you have to adjust to play in tune is different (to me anyway) than saying that you just "tend to play sharp" which would indicate that you cannot play in tune. It is also different to be seeking out a mouthpiece to make playing "less work" than it is to be seeking out a mouthpiece to actually lower your pitch.
It is very difficult to play just about any instrument without having to adjust for intonation. Some players push and pull slides, others lip things up and down, others yet use alternate fingerings. Just about everyone has to adjust one way or the other. You just have to (by your own description) lip everything down.
I guess I don't really see a major problem with having to lip things down if you can play in tune, in the center of the pitch, and with a good sound. It sounds like lipping down is the solution you've developed for yourself maybe without even realizing it, and if it is your response to fighting your natural tendency to want to play sharp, it might just be a part of your playing that you'll just have to live with.
The center of your pitch might not be the same as the center of the pitch, and I just don't think switching hardware is going to change that.
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Chen
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Re: Suggestions for a bigger mouthpiece...
My prof. suggested I get a larger mouthpiece by the way...[/quote]
Somebody must have hacked into your original post and added that line. Anyway if your teacher did not 'suggest that you get a bigger MP then it probably implies that he doesn't think you need a bigger MP. I'm definitely going to withdraw my suggestions too (who am I to challenge your teacher?).
The teachers always know better.
Somebody must have hacked into your original post and added that line. Anyway if your teacher did not 'suggest that you get a bigger MP then it probably implies that he doesn't think you need a bigger MP. I'm definitely going to withdraw my suggestions too (who am I to challenge your teacher?).
The teachers always know better.4 valves!
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iiipopes
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When I came back to tuba after being away for a couple of decades, my low register was sharp until I re-learned how to relax my mouth and throat cavity and drop my tongue.
In addition, too large a throat in the mouthpiece can cause sharpness. Instead of trying a "bigger" mouthpiece, have you and your teacher really studied your embouchure to get a good efficent rim diameter and profile for you, along with the right geometry and depth of cup to shade the tone you want, and then get that combination on a slightly smaller throat and/or backbore?
In addition, too large a throat in the mouthpiece can cause sharpness. Instead of trying a "bigger" mouthpiece, have you and your teacher really studied your embouchure to get a good efficent rim diameter and profile for you, along with the right geometry and depth of cup to shade the tone you want, and then get that combination on a slightly smaller throat and/or backbore?
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Arkietuba
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Okay, I play sharp when I play in the "center" of my embouchure. My prof. was concerned that I had to pull my slides way out to counter this. Look...don't try to diagnose a "problem" you think I have (and I don't mean to sound like an *** in that statement). My prof. as well as the other brass faculty here absolutely love my sound/tone and they all think I have excellent intonation. I'm just looking for something to help bring down the pitch so I won't have to work quite as hard on bringing it down. I would rather concentrate on other things while playing.
My prof. and I sat down with a tuner after I got my new horn to see what they characteristics of the horn were. Certain notes are sharp...some are perfectly in tune and maybe one or two are flat. I played "centered"...not adjusting to raise/lower the pitch...just in the center. My prof. suggested that I get a bigger mouthpiece to help with this. He felt the mouthpiece I was using wasn't the best for the horn too.
My prof. and I sat down with a tuner after I got my new horn to see what they characteristics of the horn were. Certain notes are sharp...some are perfectly in tune and maybe one or two are flat. I played "centered"...not adjusting to raise/lower the pitch...just in the center. My prof. suggested that I get a bigger mouthpiece to help with this. He felt the mouthpiece I was using wasn't the best for the horn too.
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circusboy
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Not to dispute the posts above--they seem right on pitch, so to speak--but you were looking for mp suggestions, right?
I tried quite a few different ones when last I went looking for a change. I found that the G&W Taku did wonders for me (whether psychologically or physiologically). It provides a lot of room for my lips to do what they need to do, and its shape seems to make constructive suggestions to my lips as I play, if that makes any sense. It helps me to center in every range of the horn, especially the low end.
While this might not be the one for you, I wouldn't be surprised if there's one out there that does do this for you. Play a lot of 'em. Happy hunting!
I tried quite a few different ones when last I went looking for a change. I found that the G&W Taku did wonders for me (whether psychologically or physiologically). It provides a lot of room for my lips to do what they need to do, and its shape seems to make constructive suggestions to my lips as I play, if that makes any sense. It helps me to center in every range of the horn, especially the low end.
While this might not be the one for you, I wouldn't be surprised if there's one out there that does do this for you. Play a lot of 'em. Happy hunting!
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Rick Denney
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A larger mouthpiece won't necessarily bring your pitch down. More volume can be offset by a larger throat, but the larger throat can also make the pitches less slotted.
And even a mouthpiece with a lower intonation tendency won't be lower uniformly up and down the instrument.
That said, the Steven Mead mouthpiece did help me lower my pitch on my euphonium. I suspect it just helped me mask my inherent weakness on that instrument, however.
Rick "thinking sharpness and tension go together" Denney
And even a mouthpiece with a lower intonation tendency won't be lower uniformly up and down the instrument.
That said, the Steven Mead mouthpiece did help me lower my pitch on my euphonium. I suspect it just helped me mask my inherent weakness on that instrument, however.
Rick "thinking sharpness and tension go together" Denney
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Arkietuba
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I guess I suck at explaining things clearly...
I do infact play in tune. I just have to adjust down on 90% of the notes. I have gotten used to this, but I feel that it could be taking away from the other aspects. My professor is Dr. Louis Young who is known nationally for his teaching ability and pedagogy. Maybe I need to clarify with him, but a couple of months ago he made the suggestion. He never said it would be a permanent fix to the "problem", but it COULD help and make it easier. All of the professors here absoluetly love my sound and intonation. I just have to pull out my slides farther than most people...it could have something to do with the amount of air/sound I put into the horn (I tend to put a lot of sound out regardless of the size horn I play on).
Anyway, if there were a problem then one of the many brass professors would have fixed it. I fixed my embouchure my first semester and now that's not a problem. I would just like to know what your opinions are on the larger mouthpieces (larger than the PT-83).
I do infact play in tune. I just have to adjust down on 90% of the notes. I have gotten used to this, but I feel that it could be taking away from the other aspects. My professor is Dr. Louis Young who is known nationally for his teaching ability and pedagogy. Maybe I need to clarify with him, but a couple of months ago he made the suggestion. He never said it would be a permanent fix to the "problem", but it COULD help and make it easier. All of the professors here absoluetly love my sound and intonation. I just have to pull out my slides farther than most people...it could have something to do with the amount of air/sound I put into the horn (I tend to put a lot of sound out regardless of the size horn I play on).
Anyway, if there were a problem then one of the many brass professors would have fixed it. I fixed my embouchure my first semester and now that's not a problem. I would just like to know what your opinions are on the larger mouthpieces (larger than the PT-83).
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Arkietuba
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I have been offered by Sam Gnagey (the builder of my horn) to have a longer tuning slide made up. I talked to Dr. Young about the longer slide...he said that it ultimately is up to me but if it were him, he would go with the mouthpiece. Now, obviously you guys don't know the full sitiuation, but I trust his opinion. I think that the mouthpiece might be the better "fix" since this happens on any horn...and I think it comes from the speed or amount of air that I use so the mouthpiece would help if I ever decide to switch horns in the future.
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Arkietuba
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Yeah, that's been one of my concerns too...but Dr. Young feels that if I get the tuning slide lengthend it might make it too low and then I can't raise it up. I'm not sure I'm quoting him 100% correctly. If I get a longer slide, I might have a problem if I have to play in a colder environment.
I'm not saying that I'm really out of tune. I'm only 5 cents sharp in most cases. Sometimes I counter this w/ alternate fingerings...but on the notes I can't do this on I have to lip down
I'm not saying that I'm really out of tune. I'm only 5 cents sharp in most cases. Sometimes I counter this w/ alternate fingerings...but on the notes I can't do this on I have to lip down
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Tubaryan12
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Do what I did....sousaphone bits. Problem solved....and if it gets cold, remove them. I like my tone....but I'm usually between 10 and 20 cents sharp. 
It was that way when I played my horn every day (college), and its that way when I play once or twice a week (now). Bigger mouthpieces didn't help much, but deeper ones did. In the end, I play the mouthpiece I like the best and add 1 sousaphone bit.
(p.s....5 cents sharp should be able to be handled by the tuning slide, If you need more slide, you're probably more than 5 cents sharp when you don't lip the notes down)
It was that way when I played my horn every day (college), and its that way when I play once or twice a week (now). Bigger mouthpieces didn't help much, but deeper ones did. In the end, I play the mouthpiece I like the best and add 1 sousaphone bit.(p.s....5 cents sharp should be able to be handled by the tuning slide, If you need more slide, you're probably more than 5 cents sharp when you don't lip the notes down)
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Steve Inman
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Playing sharp could be due to a smaller oral cavity (not tooth decay), tongue / throat not relaxed. But if 90% of the notes are sharp, it sure sounds like you need to pull the main slide and then correct for the 10% of the notes that are then going to be flat. That's just simple logic. I would agree with the votes for a lengthened tuning slide -- which may be able to be done so that the "all-the-way-in" position is the same as today -- possibly -- so nothing is lost.
A sousie tuning bit is a very clever solution. I use one with my Eb, to adjust the playing position a bit (very helpful for this) and to help with a tuning slide issue -- can't pull it quite enough or the horn isn't quite tuned for A440.
A bigger volume mpc may also help.
Steve suggests (in this order):
1. Ask Sam if he has a sousaphone "tuning bit" available that he could send you (hopefully plated the same as the color of your horn -- lacquer or silver). Try this first.
2. Hunt for a mouthpiece with a little more volume. Try this 2nd. I hate to suggest a big mpc change as it may affect more than just your intonation -- embouchure change!?!??
3. If these fail, then ask Sam to help w/ the tuning slide. I think that is the proper solution, but #1 above has the same potential to help, may offer improved playing position (or may not) and is a lot simpler.
4. If all of those fail, please send me your horn and I'll trade you a 1975 Yamaha FG-160 acoustic guitar for it ... guaranteed not to play sharp if you line up all of those 6 tuner thingies correctly ...
A sousie tuning bit is a very clever solution. I use one with my Eb, to adjust the playing position a bit (very helpful for this) and to help with a tuning slide issue -- can't pull it quite enough or the horn isn't quite tuned for A440.
A bigger volume mpc may also help.
Steve suggests (in this order):
1. Ask Sam if he has a sousaphone "tuning bit" available that he could send you (hopefully plated the same as the color of your horn -- lacquer or silver). Try this first.
2. Hunt for a mouthpiece with a little more volume. Try this 2nd. I hate to suggest a big mpc change as it may affect more than just your intonation -- embouchure change!?!??
3. If these fail, then ask Sam to help w/ the tuning slide. I think that is the proper solution, but #1 above has the same potential to help, may offer improved playing position (or may not) and is a lot simpler.
4. If all of those fail, please send me your horn and I'll trade you a 1975 Yamaha FG-160 acoustic guitar for it ... guaranteed not to play sharp if you line up all of those 6 tuner thingies correctly ...
Steve Inman
Yamaha YEB-381 Eb
Conn 56J CC
Willson-Marzan CC Solo Model
Kokomo Chamber Brass
Yamaha YEB-381 Eb
Conn 56J CC
Willson-Marzan CC Solo Model
Kokomo Chamber Brass
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tubatom91
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Arkietuba
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Well, I don't have much room to pull out my tuning slide...it's pretty much as far out as it can go...and my 1st valve slide is about 3" out (which is fairly far even though it's only about 2/3 of the way out). Dr. Young was just saying that the slide might help, but he's concerned that it may lower the pitch too much since I'm not that far out of tune when I play right in the center (5-10 cents).
I'm not worried about a mouthpiece change right now. I've done it before and I'm still in college so I have plenty of time to get used to it. Plus, I was thinking of something along the lines of the PT-88 (since I like the PT mp's) but I just wanted to hear some other suggestions.
I'm not worried about a mouthpiece change right now. I've done it before and I'm still in college so I have plenty of time to get used to it. Plus, I was thinking of something along the lines of the PT-88 (since I like the PT mp's) but I just wanted to hear some other suggestions.
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iiipopes
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