Northern Indiana Tuba Shopping

[Steve Inman]

I went shopping today -- trying to see if there might be a good BBb out there that would be worth switching to from CC, to make it easier to double on euph, and to have more common fingerings with Eb tuba.

The short answer: no. The CCs were universally easier to play, but there's more to consider ...

The long (rambling) answer: There are two BBbs I tried today that played as easy as some of the larger CCs. Using "My Spirit Be Joyful" as the "test course", I tried a Miraphone 187, 191 and 1291 at WWBW and a Fafner at Tuba Dome. I also tried a 1291 CC, a Neptune, a 2145, 2155, a Thor (at WWBW) and a Thor and a Baer 6/4 at Tuba Dome. (Thanks to WWBW and to Roger for the opportunities.)

The 187 BBb didn't have as broad of a sound as I was hunting for, but it was a nice horn. The 191 wasn't as easy for me to play cleanly in the upper register as was the 1291. So of the Miraphones, the 1291 BBb provided a nice, strong voice and "reasonable" agility in the upper register. Very strong player overall -- but not as easy for me to play cleanly in the upper register as the 1291 CC -- which I still like (almost as well as the 1292 CC I tried last year). The Thor is just as nice this year as it was on my last visit. The Neptune is remarkably easy to play for a large horn. I found the 1291 BBb and the Neptune to be approximately equally "easy" (or not -- i.e. equally difficult) for me to play in the upper register with 16th and 32nd notes. But the 1291 CC was a dream in comparison -- just not as big of a sound as the Neptune (of course) and not as weighty as the Thor (of course). The 2155 had a nice sound for a general purpose CC. The 2145 would make a very nice quintet horn, but I didn't think it had a big enough voice for a larger group.

After lunch and deployment of the single-use, desposable toothbrush, I discovered at the Tuba Dome that the Fafner was one nice BBb. I think it was a smidge easier for me to manage in the upper register than the 1291 BBb, but I still couldn't manage to play it as cleanly as the CC choices. But it had a lovely sound. It is a BIG Kaiser BBb, btw. Big. Roger's Thor(s) were tried, as was the new Baer 6/4 -- which was amazingly easy to play and had a great sound. Big/full but with some focus as well. Very big, but not enormous. And remarkably easy to play with agility as well -- almost as easy as the 1291 CC was. Very impressive. Very expensive! (you get what you pay for ...)

Conclusions: 1291 BBb and Fafner BBb are both very nice. I liked the Fafner better. I would consider choosing it based on the sound (very nice) if I had another good horn for quintet use (i.e. more agile in the upper octave). Both BBbs were more work for me to play with agility in the upper register than several CC options. Of the CC horns, I still like the 1291/1292. I'm interested to play a rotary 1291 which is rumored to be coming. I suspect the piston version will be easier for me to play cleanly. The Thor is still a very strong horn with a lot of weight to the voice, especially down low. Based on this, it might be worthy of the "5/4" label, but I think it's easier to call it a BIG, POWERFUL 4/4. The Baer is very impressive, but "I'm not worthy" and "I don't need it" and "I've got a kid in college" .... enough said!

(Oh -- almost forgot -- the new Howard Johnson MW top action 4V BBb was very nice, btw.)

I ran into Mike Mason, who was in the neighborhood looking for a new horn as well. I'm curious to learn what he ends up buying. The jury was still out as of 2PM. I'm hoping he posts his impressions of the horns he tried out. I would consider his opinion(s) with more weight than my amateur perspectives.

Cheers,

[MikeMason]

Well, we just rolled in from Indiana.Whew...long ride.I had a great time playing tubas and getting to know Roger Lewis.He truly lives up to all his positive hype.He is more interested in a customer getting what he needs than making the sale himself.I want to support a guy like that.At Tubadome(side note:I'm getting a class action lawsuit together against Roger.There is NO DOME at the tubadome.I'm thinking the big one at Notre Dame,where we can all sound like gods when we try horns )i tried the Thor,Baer,2145,and the Hojo.I wanted to take em all home.The Thor played just like i expected-great.I'm a better tuba player immediately on it.My slide pulling days may well be over.The Baer was awesome and a bit smaller than my old holton,which is a good thing.The 2145 was about what i expected as well-great,dark sound,easy to play,hard to overblow,just smaller.My only real surprise was the Hojo.Much better than expected.Resonant,easy to play,great sound and low register.When i pick up a 4 top action tuba,I'm thinking yam 321,not my favorite.Very pleasant surprise.Don't overlook this horn if you're looking for a BBb.
Next stop-Brasswind.Well, brasswind has alot of tubas.They sorely need someone to love their tuba department.The guys there are friendly and helpful,they just don't know much about tubas or love them like Charlie and Roger did.Lots of gummy valves,dents and dings,tarnish,etc.-a bit of a turnoff.But,i still had a good time.I really liked the Miraphone 1291 and 1292-really easy to play,super low register,just a tad too small for my current needs.I would say it's a healthy 4/4.I liked the BBb 1291 very much and it had a significantly different sound,darker and more resonant.The 191 was a little disappointing,great sound,but a little harder to play in and above the staff for me.My favorite BBb was probably the VMI 3301.Really plays well.The Neptunes they had were in rough shape.Dents,bells creased,one of their valves barely moved.Neptunes are really BIG.Too big for my current needs.The one whose valves did work played well,but i felt i could overblow the horn a little too easy.Apparently a different blow required.But,great price if you like it.Another horn that absolutely lives up to it's hype-the firebird.Wow.Super horn.Sound,low register,valves.I'm in love.They also had a Thor,but Roger's seemed a little better(probably because it's been played some,and Roger has maintained it).I did leave out my experience with Roger's JBL classic f.What a work of art.Absolutely beautiful to see,hold,and play.Goldbrass 6valve.Dark,resonant sound,but still the B&S sound.Super valves.Low register not as good as firebird,but better than other B&S's I've played.The sound and presence is truly special on this horn.I did spend a couple minutes on a Fafner.Big mutha.Not my cup of tea,but a really good horn.Roger is sending me the Thor Monday morning....

[Steve Inman]

Thanks, Mike. I didn't try the VMI 3301 this time, but the last time I was trying BBb horns, I really liked it. I liked the core of its sound better than the sound of the new King 2341. (Of course, I ended up with the Conn 56J -- oh well.)

So you're going from a Holton BBb to the Thor. I rather figured you might be looking for something a little larger, coming from a Holton BBb. I would agree that the weight of sound from the Thor seems more impressive than the 1291/2 horns, even with the smaller bell of the Thor.

And, re: Tuba DOME -- there is a dome -- sort of ... it's just a square dome instead of round!

Cheers,

[cjk]

Am I the only person who doesn't like the Thor?


I thought it was overly edgy in the low end, and I really didn't like the sound too much (with a Bach 18). Maybe next time I play one I might like it better, but for the cost there's a bunch of other things I'd definitely get first. It didn't seem particularly big to me either. I thought that both 1291's, and especially the Bb, played bigger.



My favorite big tubas (most played at "that" place too)-
1. Mira 1291 Bb
2. Mira 1291 C
3. tie- rotary Neptune and VMI 3301, gotta be honest that part of the attraction for the 3301 for ME is the nice used prices too.
4. Mira 191 Bb


And that's about it. I'm not sure if I've ever played a Willson contrabass, but I'm not super fond of the piston F or Eb.



I really don't like the sound of most C tubas. I might like a smaller one, but I've never really played a small C.

The 1291 Bb, for me, was the "epitome" of a contrabass tuba. Huge sound, big low register, and overall fun to play.
Maybe it's just me Eb "fixation," but to me most C tubas sound like bloated Eb's. Even the 3301 was like that (though not quite as much as the C's). I wouldn't necessarily turn down a 1291 C, but I liked the Bb better.

I really like the low register of the 191, but the upper register sounds alot different (maybe the low is too violent! ) and I got a really weird reaction on C and B right below the staff.

I've never played a 187 or a King 2341.

I did play the Fafner, and while I thought it was nice I wasn't drawn to it like the 1291 Bb.

I REALLY liked the sound of the 2155, but I literally could not play the instrument without breaking off and reattaching my wrist at a different angle (NOT a thumb ring thing). I wanted to like the 2145, but I just didn't. I don't know why.

I really liked the pedal range on the Firebird. That's about all I remember about it but man was that fun.

Ain't tubas fun!!

Buy a tuner (or use the one you have) and I guarantee it will change some of your opinions.

[cjk]

I mean yeah tuning seemed fine on the Thor. But it also was good on the 1291, 3301,.....

And unless it had PERFECT intonation and every other horn was a crapshoot, it wouldn't make up for the sound of it.

I played with Roger 3 times this summer and he sounded fine. But when I play it it sounds bad. And since I would be the one playing it, that's really what matters to me. And no, I don't suck.

The Rudy piston on the other hand was just weird.

OK, here's my point, I'm thinking your ears listening to yourself are not as good as you think they are and you should be taking a tuner on your tuba trying trips or you are really wasting your time.

The Rudy piston model has an outstanding scale. It has a low register that you probably need to get used to. It doesn't have a flat fifth partial like so many instruments do and many tuba players seem to feel is standard/acceptable. The horn wants a bowl shaped mouthpiece with a fairly large throat and then the low register works pretty darned well.

The Thor has a very nice scale. An open E that's kinda flat, might be useable, might need to play it 1+2 depending on the specimen. It blows fine 1+2. The low register rocks. I was very impressed, but not floored. I really like it. It was like all the best qualities of a Willson CC and a Miraphone 186 all mixed up in one. I'm tossing around the idea of buying one.

I'm sorry if this offends anybody, but IMHO the early 1291 CCs had terrible scales. A new one I played at the Miraphone factory a couple of months ago was better, but not much. They are fun to play by themselves, but not with other people. They do have a very even timbre from low to high, but timbre is not pitch.

In stark contrast, the Miraphone Firebird, Norwegian Star, Starlight, and 188 CC all had truly superb scales. The Miraphone E-flats are PERFECT for those Eb guys that want more of an F tuba sound. The Starlight is everything those little Cerveny 641 or Miraphone 183 E-flats wished they were. The Firebird is one of the easiest to play rotor F tubas on the market.

[Steve Inman]

The Thor DOES sound a bit edgy to me also -- not as mellow up close. It has more density or weight to the sound than any other horn its size, imo. But I try to consider what it will sound like 50 ft away from me. I suspect the edginess will become more mellow with a little distance and with a few other instruments playing along. Also, substitute a standard Helleberg for the Bach 18 and it will darken up a bit, I think.

I read that the venerable Rudy 3/4 CC had the characteristic of sounding a bit "harsh" up close. Which translated into wonderful presence and projection from the audience's perspective. (The one I played several years ago at WWBW didn't strike me as "harsh", so much as a bit "light" or "bright" -- compared with other larger horns around. But I can't push a horn as well some of the better folks ....) I quite liked it's sound, btw. To me, the Thor sounds pretty heavy and a bit edgy. But that may be wonderful for the audience (or -- for a tubist in the audience!)

I really want to hear one being played in a group setting, from the middle seat in a medium-sized auditorium.

Cheers,

[Allen]

... But I try to consider what it will sound like 50 ft away from me. I suspect the edginess will become more mellow with a little distance and with a few other instruments playing along. ...

I read that the venerable Rudy 3/4 CC had the characteristic of sounding a bit "harsh" up close. Which translated into wonderful presence and projection from the audience's perspective. ...

I think you're really onto something here.

I work with pipe organs a lot, and have always been stunned by the difference in sound close up to the pipes in an organ chamber, and the sound out in the auditorium. Close up to the pipes in the chamber, the sound can be coarse, honking shrieking and quite raucous. In the auditorium, the sound will be refined and magnificent. I expect that really good musicians also understand the difference between what hits their ears, and what hits the audience's ears, and choose their equipment and playing styles accordingly.

Cheers,
Allen
Who is getting tempted to go tuba shopping. Must stop reading this thread....

[iiipopes]

Two observations:

1) Which Rudy piston model are you all referring to?

2) Definite on the sound up close vs far away. Fundamental wave lengths in the "cash register" range of a tuba are several feet long, which means you can't hear them yourself. You need to rely on someone else to tell you how it really sounds, and try to play in a room with a good back wall that can give the sound back to you. I have also worked with pipe organs, and I concur wholeheartedly. One of the most raucous stops difficult to voice correctly is a cylindrical reed, whether you call it a krummhorn, cromorne, or any other name, or any other related stop, such as a vox humana, schalmai or such. So when I helped an organ tech work on one of these stops some years ago, I sat at the console, of a sizable 3 manual Casavant, which had a movable console. We put it as far out as possible to the edge of the stage to get as much "room sound" in the recital hall of the local state university as we could, and he adjusted the wire and tuning slide on each pipe as I would say what it needed to regulate. We finally got them all regulated to that fine balance between the "hollow" characteristic resonance of the tube and the buzziness of the reed. Then I went up in the chamber, and as he played to see how it sounded to him out front all the sound up close in the chamber was just a buzzy wretch. No "tone" up close at all!

[quinterbourne]

[intonation] was good on the 1291... The Rudy piston on the other hand was just weird.

The Rudy piston model has an outstanding scale... I'm sorry if this offends anybody, but IMHO the early 1291 CCs had terrible scales.

I agree with cjk on this one. I've tried 3 Rudy pistons (4345 CC) and the intonation on these horns are excellent. Not only is the 5th partial E not flat, the 6th partial G is not sharp. I bought one and I rarely have to move slides.

The two Miraphone 1291 CCs I tried at WWBW did have a good sound, but awful intonation. I especially noticed it on the 3rd space D, super FLAT (when I made Bb and F below it in tune, my tuner registered the D as a C#).

I would also strongly suggest you bring a tuner along. Every horn has pitch tendencies, and when you've been playing on it long enough that horn's scale becomes your scale. Your ears begin to recognize out of tune pitches as in tune pitches. So... when you try a horn with in tune pitches, you recognize those as being out of tune.

I believe you liked the intonation on the 1291 better than the Rudy because the 1291 scale is closer to what you're used to on your horns.

[Steve Inman]

Steve, have you tried the new 2141 or either of the Mira Eb's yet?

No. Played one of the first 2141's to come to the US, a long time ago. I would have bought it except that back then, they had some notable intonation issues. If they had come out of the blocks as they are today, I would very likely be a one-tuba 2141 Eb player. I haven't ruled this out as a reasonable choice for me yet. But were I to go that route, I suspect that for three gigs each year I would really miss a bigger, contrabass sound. (Two Christmas church orchestra venues and a ~15pc brass choir)

Dan Clouse has posted and PM'ed me about his enjoyment of his new 2141, and how capable it is.

I *DO* want to try out the Norwegian Star. The only reason I might consider a Star-Lite would be if I had a bigger CC and a smaller CC and still wanted a smaller F but didn't want to switch back to F fingerings. But for this role, the YEB-381 is more than capable (just doesn't sound like a rotary F) ... and and it's paid for!

Cheers,