Pimp My TUBA!!

[TexTuba]

Hello everyone! Well, I own a Miraphone 186 CC and I was wondering if anyone knows of some tweaks that can be done to it. The reason I ask this is, one, my horn is in the shop right now getting some bell damage removed! Two, I am always hearing about these horns that are "tweaked." For example, "This horn has been tweaked by (insert some tuba guru's name) ." What can be done to horns? It looks like I'm going to have to keep this horn for a while longer so I felt that maybe I could get some modifications done to improve an already great horn. That is, if there IS anything that can be done. By the way, my Miraphone has the older, smaller lead pipe. Serial number 12###, if that helps at all. Thanks in advance for any and all opinions.

Ralph

[Tubaguy56]

I know a guy who added a left hand trigger for his first valve slide on a mira 191....

back when i had a mira 186, I always wanted to get leather covers for the rotor valves just because I thought they would look awesome. (and probably some leather trim elsewhere, even tho it has not purpose at all)

[iiipopes]

You're all missing the obvious: an extra valve leading directly to a beer tap. Just where is that picture of the tuba with the bell full of beer?

On a serious side, what most people are talking about is one or more of the following, and this is not an exhaustive list:
1) height, angle and position of the leadpipe and receiver,
2) height, angle, span and length of the paddles,
3) repositioning of the thumb ring,
4) aligning the rotors so they turn exactly 90 degrees at exactly the right elevation within the casing to get the best flow possible,
5) for horns with linkage that either rattles or is worn out, replacing with uniball style linkage,
6) burnishing the valve slides for quick adjustments,
7) triggers, handles, or such in order to facilitate the adjustments,
8 ) remove lacquer/redo lacquer/remove plate/redo plate/change the finish/etc to the exterior of the horn as a means of changing or improving its response and tonality
9) venting rotors so that the pressure in the valve slides is relieved so they don't pop when you do adjust them before pressing a valve,
10) all manner of treatment to a bell, whether simple repairs, adding/removing a garland, changing a bell to a different throat and rim geometry, again to alter or "improve" the response, intonation or tonality,
11) changing the receiver internal size or taper to accomodate different mouthpieces
12) repositioning or reconstructing bracing to change the nodal characteristics, again to change or improve response or intonation,
13) adding a 5th valve to 4 valve horns,
14) changing the material of the leadpipe or bell: yellow brass, rose brass, red brass, copper, bronze, sterling silver, nickel silver, etc., to change tonal charactistics or prevent interaction of body chemistry eating away the leadpipe,
15) drilling the rotors to lighten them on the theory that less mass means less inertia and therefore they will operate quicker,
16) lighter or heavier valve caps, receivers, braces, etc, to change the response or characteristics, including "slotting" of the instrument,
17) changing the position of the linkage and top rotor caps so all the rotors rotate the same way,
18 ) going beyond repairs or modifications to correct a valve slide or tubing that is simply the wrong length, shortening the 1st valve slide so the 5th partial C on a BBb tuba and D on a C tuba can be pushed so it is not flat,
19) lengthening the 4th valve tubing, or fitting a slide with longer internal tubes so it can be pulled for low note intonation,
20) changing the linkage and positioning of the thumb trigger for better position and smoother operation -- usually done in conjunction with moving the thumb ring, and
21) guys, did I miss anything?

[MartyNeilan]

13) adding a 5th valve to 4 valve horns,

21) guys, did I miss anything?

13.5) removing the 5th valve (on a 5 valve horn) to make it a 4 valve horn.

[iiipopes]

Oh, yeah! Exactly. I have a friend who had the 5th valve removed from his Conn 56J and it really opened up the overall tone, especially the lower register.

[TexTuba]

A "Pimp My Tuba" Top 10 List

7. Airbrushed portrait of a naked woman that for some unknown reason has leopard spotted skin and is wearing only stiletto heels and a crucifix.

8. The name of your dead cousin/brother/buddy/whomever (shot as part of an ongoing gang feud) and "RIP" painted down the side of the bell.

Wade "cruised with many pachucos in lowriders in San Antonio growing up" Rackley

As far as number 7, I was thinking actually of doing that whole "Aztec Warrior" picture that you always see of him holding a woman. Number 8 has already been done. May Paco RIP...
But instead of Bondo, I was thinking of painting it candy apple red, you know, make it real "charp." Whaddya think?

In all seriousness, I have recieved some GREAT ideas. One question on the leadpipe: Why is it preferable to keep the smaller leadpipe? If it is something that I shouldn't mess with, that's no problem. I am just curious as to the reason. Thanks everyone!!

Ralph

[iiipopes]

In general, a smaller leadpipe requires less air and has a little tighter slotting. For most hackers like me who play in concert band settings, that is a definite plus. For the big boys and girls who support the big orchestras, to be able to push more air and adjust to the wire choir as intonation moves around, a lot of them prefer the larger leadpipes. There is a lot of discussion on the forum about this particular issue concerning the Miraphone 129X horns and what makes them what they are.

[MartyNeilan]

13.5) removing the 5th valve (on a 5 valve horn) to make it a 4 valve horn.

From the guy who quite recently had a 5 valve horn with 2 triggers (am I right about the number?).

Yeah, but it NEEDED them!!
The good news, is that with the extra hardware, it could be very in tune
You also forgot to mention the 6 valve horn I just also sold

Seriously, it is interesting to see the number of people who do choose to remove a fifth valve (Conn 5xJ, Holton 345 come to mind immediately), I wonder if it is close to the amount who add a fifth valve. Truthfully, i have had several 4 valve CC's and not really missed it too much. Plus, I seem to remember a guy who made his living playing quintets on a number of not-so-big CC's that only had 4 valves. (Although he can be seen with a 5 rotor CC on the first couple albums.)

Marty "who wouldn't mind adding a 5th valve to his Weimar someday down the road if it didn't change the response or intonation" Neilan

[Dean E]

. . . . 21) guys, did I miss anything?

That's an amazing list. Here are a few more items.

--reversing rotor action (who knows why?)
--replacing rotor bumpers
--adding water valves
--plating & lapping piston valves and/or bodies
--tweaking/replacing piston valve slots and guides
--aligning piston valves with new corks and felts
--replacing valve springs
--removing dings from the slides (avoiding stuffiness)
--isolating leadpipe from the bell by unsoldering and installing braces

[bort]

--adding water valves

Yup, that's what I was going to add...on my previous tuba (a rotary VMI), I had a second water key added, and only wish I had done that sooner. Couldn't have been cheaper or easier.

[iiipopes]

Well, I did miss a few more. Thanks. It only shows that tubas are as customizable, if not more, than a low-rider. I guess we'll change the song:

(Da da da da da dah dat da da dah dat dah)

All my friends know the tuba player
The tuba player is a little lower
Tuba player plays a little slower
Tuba player is a real show-er
Tuba player knows every beat, yeah!
Tuba player is the one to meet, yeah!
Tuba player don't use no stash now
Tuba player don't play to fast
Take a little lip
Take a little lip
Take a little lip and see
Take a little lip
Take a little lip
Take a little lip with me

[Steve Inman]

[TexTuba]

If it already plays great, who do you want to "tweak" it? Do you have extra money that you need to get rid of? Because I've got a few horns that don't play at all, a few that play well, and one (my 186) that plays great. But I'll tell you, if I had cash to burn, I'd spend it on getting my other horns in working condition ... perhaps to sell them later on.

I only ask because the title of the post seems to reference a show that takes cars that hardly run, look pathetic, and need serious mechanical/electrical/body work, and fix them.

It's an honest question, so here it goes. I don't really know why I picked that that particular title. It just popped into my head!! Yes, my horn does play quite well as it is. But MOST Miraphones DO play quite well to begin with, and then some are modified to enhance them even more. Now I'm not talking about modifications that are sort of cosmetic, like laquer stripping. Actually, the horn was already raw brass when I purchased it. I simply want to have my horn in the best possilble shape. I can not and probably will not be able to ever get that Gronitz or Hirsbrunner, and that's fine with me. But I figure I could spend about $1000-2000 on modifications that would make my horn even better than it is. I hope this makes sense!

Ralph

[Chuck(G)]

... Actually, the horn was already raw brass when I purchased it. I simply want to have my horn in the best possilble shape.

Have it buffed and lacquered. It'll stay nice looking with a minimum of care.

[TexTuba]

How old is it, Ralph? Are the rotors reeeeeely quick and quiet like a new tuba?

A common "tweak" (actually a necessary repair and not a modification) is to have your rotor bearings swaged. This refits them and takes out a lot of play and noise and can cost a good bit since it is pretty labor intensive. Only experienced technicians should do this work on something as big and heavy as a tuba. You can seriously butcher a rotor doing this. It is not hard to do but takes some experience.

I do not actually recommend this, however.

Read that last sentence again.

When the bearings are pretty worn it is better to have them done in the manner shown on Dan O's site. The worn parts need to be plated up a bit beyond spec and then hand lapped back into the casings. Swaging just sort of crimps the end of the bearing down to the level of the worn out spindle. I have done this a lot when a customer requested it. It can work like a miracle but can also "wear out" really fast because the bearing is now riding on the tightened tip of the bearing on the spindle. Plating/lapping involves fitting the entire length of the spindle correctly.

Also, swaging can make a new, replacement rotor not fit properly into the casing properly. It will be too large for the bearing because the swaging collet tightens the casing bearing to fit a worn down spindle. The new one is not worn down and will have to be worked on a bit to get the new rotor to fit.

However, a good valve rebuilding requires nearly total disassembly of the tuba and (usually) sending off the valves to a plater that specializes in musical instruments (like Anderson's in St. Louis). Some technicians have their own plating facilities on site to do this; most do not.

A quality valve rebuild is the single best thing you can do to an older rotary horn, IMHO if it already plays very well. It sounds as though yours probably does not need this done to it.

If you use your first slide a lot, venting it would be a very nice thing. There was a craze for this back in the middle to late 1980s and everyone had all of their rotor casings vented.

I now ask "Why?"

Venting opens up the casing to schmutz. Vent only the slides that you actually use regularly so that you do not open up the casing to the elements without need. (If you use all of your slides regularly then forget venting as you probably need a new tuba anyway.)

On my Alexander I vented 1 and 2 only. I NEVER move 3 and rarely need to move 4. Two is used some every time I play the horn, and using 1 is like some demented solo gymnastic event. So venting q and 2 (and redoing my rotors and linkages) made the whole experience of playing this tuba much better for me.

It is 50 years old now and is starting to show it. It need some real work that I am unable/unwilling to do myself. When that time comes I will be a happy boy. Repairs are fun to get done when they are truly needed. When you get the horn back and it is plays so much better in general or some persistent, niggling problem finally goes away suddenly life is good.

Dent work is a great investment, too.

Having really ugly or messy work cleaned up is also very gratifying.

Having your horn "tweaked" just to have something cool done to it is not worth the cost. I know that this is probably not what you really wanted to hear in this thread. Tweaking is fixing specific, little problems. Adding water keys is always okay if it is not to some really stupid place. But the far more esoteric act of repositioning braces to affect playing characteristics is probably not something you need to mess with for many years yet.

You need to concentrate on good, basic (and needed) repair work for now and leave tweaking alone until you have a genuine need of something.

Learn your horn well enough that you can identify genuine ergonomic or acoustical problems. Have a teacher check them out to see whether the problem is real or is actually "operator error." If it is real then first look at getting around through persistent practice. If you cannot get around it then look at having it modified. Many modifications can lower the value of a tuba because they take the out of the norm and customize it for only one person. That can be a big bonus when selling. It can also kill your asking price.

BTW – If you did not like my lowrider suggestions, you could always put one of these on your top bow.





Wade

My horn serial number is 125##. If I'm correct, that would put in somewhere in the 1980s. No, they are NOT quick and quiet. They don't suck, but they most definitely not like the new Miraphones I've played. I was only looking for options, so ALL options are welcomed. Trust me, NOTHING anyone says here hurts my feelings! I will definitely look into this and see if it's possible for my repair man to do this. Thanks again everyone for EVERYTHING!!! Low Rider...LOL

Ralph

[iiipopes]

I absolutely agree, from having my three instruments worked on and having been around dozens more of all types, not just tubas, that there comes a point of definite diminishing returns that vary from instrument to instrument. They generally fall under one of these categories, oversimplified:

1) repairs to get a horn playable,

2) modifications to get a horn to fit you,

3) other modifications for the sake of modifying, or to try to get a different tonality.

I've done all three, both on tubas and on guitars, as well as a few other instruments. But all have limits. For #1, you better pay less than you think you can get out of it, because if the horn doesn't play as you desire once it's "fixed," you're stuck. My Besson falls into this category. I paid $411 for it, and with various repairs I still have less than $700 in it, and that's about its limit. I'm still debating a couple hundred more to really fix the leaks properly, but for that I will need to weigh the enjoyment of playing it verses the cost when I have two others. Right now, the balance is leaning towards wait. That may change in the future. We'll see. Getting every ding and bump fixed on a souzy? Not going to happen, just to take it to the next outdoor gig and get another one to replace it. So as of right now I'm ahead of the game on that one. For #2, you need a good horn that has good resale value, and you need to make sure the adjustments are either reversible or further changeable for the next person. My Miraphone is in this category: repositioned and reangled the leadpipe and receiver for my slight overbite, and had the thumb ring repositioned and the paddles repositioned. With its non-standard bell, I got a good deal on it, and I can sell it for what I have in it, including alterations, if I change my mind later, and everything can easily be put back "stock." For #3, I've done that to numerous guitars and the two souzys I've had in the last few years, namely making the top loop of the 1st valve tubing into a slide so I can get valve combinations in tune. Minimal cost, maximum results. But I've also poured money in a hole on other guitars doing this, take the loss, and chalk it off to cost of lessons learned.

So whatever you do with this tuba, keep the bottom line in mind, not only on the music but on your wallet. You may say you'll never sell a horn, and that may be true, but at the point of diminishing returns, if you put more money into it, you're potentially depriving yourself of the funds to get another tuba that is either in better shape, or of a different configuration as you proceed through your tuba playing days and come to a point your playing circumstances change.

Oh, yeah -- the cheapest and most cost-effective modification of all: go to a home center, purchase (for most regular tubas) between five and seven feet of 5/16 inch clear plastic tubing, depending on the diameter of the rim, take an Exacto knife and slit it lengthwise, and fit it as a rim protector over your bell. Cost at my local home store: 17 cents a foot, so seven feet for the circumference of my souzy bell is all of a whopping $1.19 plus sales tax and the gas to get there and back. Add a half hour for the round trip, about a quarter hour with the help of another person holding the tubing so you slit it correctly, and a few minutes to fit it, and in less time than it takes to do a "honeydo" at home, you have great protection for your horn, and if the bell is prone to overring, as a lot of souzys are, you have damped that as well.

[Chuck(G)]

Not quite 7 years ago when I said:

http://www.chisham.com/tips/bbs/dec2000 ... 40360.html

[iiipopes]

Or the tires!