Why don't more people use the main tuning slide?

[MartyNeilan]

A bad 5th partial is common to many (most) tubas; it is because in the natural harmonic series that partial (the major third) tends to lay low; we have gotten so used to the unnatural "equal tempered" tuning system that it is now considered flat. However, outside of the rare Alex, there really isn't reason to buy a tuba with a 6th partial that is so far out of whack it needs an alternate fingering. Bad 3rd partials are more common on large tubas (standard on many 6/4's) and relatively easily overcome with the same 13 or 4 fingerings, but when you start putting down that many valves higher up on the horn there can be an unwanted change in timbre. A 6th partial that is 5-10 cents (maybe even 15, depending on the player and the horn) can be lipped up without too much of a problem. Anything more than that and it is probably a horn to be avoided.

[Steve Inman]

Some (all?) Marzan tubas have the main tuning slide brought up to the top of the horn, where it can be grabbed and moved in lieu of the other slides. I don't see these FS very often, and don't know all of the history or versions available.

TNFJ experts -- more info?

[jonesbrass]

Steve is right. Some of the Marzan's were designed with this feature. Personally, I don't do a whole lot of slide pulling, and when I do it's usually on certain notes, or sustained tones. I don't think I want to move the whole pitch of the horn on the fly for one out-of-tune note. I think there are other ways (for me, more preferable ways) to do it.

[Chuck(G)]

Doesn't the Marzan/willson front action also have a usable main slide as well?

Do you mean the euphonium (Willson 2975)? Yes, it does, and it's very conveniently located . But then, all of the tuning slides are accessible from the top, with the exception of the 4th valve slide. Earlier versions of the instrument had that one on top also.

[iiipopes]

An adjustible main tuning slide is standard on Kanstul tubas with their "tune any note" system. They have a second tuning slide topside with a ring attached to it so you can manipulate it instead of individual slides, and the "main" tuning slide is still on the bottom to set for open pitches.

[DaTubaKid]

When I was playing with the Chicago Youth Symphony Orchestra a few years back, there was apparently a guy who had an old tuba in his basement, which he then donated to the orchestra. The orchestra got the horn cleaned up and I now had a nice Marzan (with the upright tuning slide) to play in orchestra. Boy was I confused when I saw that tuning slide there!

[windshieldbug]

I have a CC Marzan that I got for a reasonable price when I was still in school. Once I got used to using the main slide for everything, I found it VERY easy to use my ears no matter what the tuning used in the orchestra, and although I still pull valve slides on my 'pfhones, I'd find it UNNATURAL to use anything else as my main horn...

[druby]

In the current market, the Besson Prestige 2051 and 2052 and the Sterling Virtuoso both sport main tuning slide triggers.With the compensating euphs, most are pretty well in tune except for being sharp on the 6th partial. While many of us can lip these sharp notes down, it tends to distort your tone ad often the hrons are as much as 30 cents sharp on Eb, E, F, F# and G above middle C. The main slide is much more useful on these horns with down facing valve slides that trying to pull individual valve slides. Also, since the left hand is already tied up with the 4th valve (in 3+1) configuration, the trigger tends to be moved with the left thumb.

In the past, the Conn 24I/25I Connstellation and some Reynolds Contempora 4 valve euphs also had spring loaded main slides. These were 4 valve bell-front (mostly) front-loader horns without compensation.The tuning slide was used for combinations involving 1-3, 1-2-3 or any combination involving 4th valve below low F. Even with the slide out all the way and using 1-2-3-4, low B natural above pedal Bb was pretty much onobtainable. The horn was generally over a 1/2 pitch sharp just above the pedals.

Doug

[lgb&dtuba]

Why don't more people use the main tuning slide?

Because then you'd be playing trombone?

[Ed Jones]

The answer to the question is simple:

If manufacturers made tubas with the main slides adjustable on the fly, they would be admitting that their instruments played out of tune.

[Rick Denney]

The answer to the question is simple:

If manufacturers made tubas with the main slides adjustable on the fly, they would be admitting that their instruments played out of tune.

I suspect you're right, Ed, but it makes no sense. It seems to me that there are enough variations in tuning systems, tuning in various keys, and in playing conditions so that the notion that intonation is automatic should be rejected out of hand.

Another possibility is that then the manufacturers would have to provide a tuning slide that is actually long enough to do some good.

Rick "who has built or used main-slide tuning sticks on three tubas" Denney

[druby]

Being a current and past owner of a Connstellation Euph and having played the Besson Prestige, I can tell you that the mechanics of the spring loaded adjustable tuning slide are somewhat precarious on the relatively small slides in Euphs.

The Conn's usually dribble condensation and you have to cradle the whole horn with your left hand and reach around to move the slide. However at least the slide is on the front where there is nothing to interfere. On the Besson's. the slide is on the back of the horn, so thre are shirt protector shields to keep grease and drool off of your shirt. These horns have had issues with sticky linkage. On both horns, you have to keep the slide very clean and lubricated with a very light grease (like vaseline) to insure a good seal and smooth movement. Also, it is hard to completely drain the main tuning slide just with the spit valve, but the mechanism keeps the slide from being easily removeabl. The newest Bessons have a quick release ball linkage to help out with this issue.

My concern on a Tuba is that you have to move a much larger slide a longer distance to get the same effect. It has to have a very quick release and return (ergo strong spring mechansim) and the fit, finish and alignmnt on the slide has to b perfect for this to all work. Sounds like an accident waiting to happen to me (given that Tubas are more dent/ding prone than most other brass instruments).

Doug

[windshieldbug]

there are enough variations in tuning systems, tuning in various keys, and in playing conditions so that the notion that intonation is automatic should be rejected out of hand

[Rick Denney]

My concern on a Tuba is that you have to move a much larger slide a longer distance to get the same effect. It has to have a very quick release and return (ergo strong spring mechansim) and the fit, finish and alignmnt on the slide has to b perfect for this to all work. Sounds like an accident waiting to happen to me (given that Tubas are more dent/ding prone than most other brass instruments).

These issues have been worked out one at a time in many cases.

I built a spring-loaded tuning stick for my Sanders Bb tuba (a Cerveny). It had a bell crank to operate the sideways slide using a T-handle at the top. It flattened the instrument when you pushed it down, and then returned to a normal set position. That slide was surely not perfect, but it worked. It was inspired by a (better made) mechanism of similar design on a 188 owned by Jay Rozen.

On a Vespro, the fifth partial was unusably flat. I built a tuning stick for the sideways main slide that sharpened the instrument when pushed down. I mounted it alongside the first valve slide and put a thumb ring on it so that I could sharpen the main slide using the left hand while it was resting on the first valve slide. My tech and I adjusted the main slide to work appropriately fast. It still wasn't perfect by Blokian standards but it worked.

My plastic Martin tuba has a tuning stick which is just attached to the side of the downward-pointing main slide. That tuning stick was installed by or at the request of Lenny Jung, its previous owner. I suspect its main purpose was to overcome the valve swindle since the instrument has only three valves.

Speaking of valve swindle, Don Stauffer, who first coined that term, recalls receiving a conductor complaint concerning the tuning of the third partial on his Conn BAT back in the day. He describes installing a curtain rod as a tuning stick on that instrument, in the 1940's, and how its success led to similar devices on his later tubas. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if he and Lenny Jung had compared notes on the subject.

The Martin and Vespro were not spring loaded, and on reflection I see no need for spring loading. We manipulate the first valve slide all the time with no spring-loaded resting place.

All of these mechanisms were suffiently inboard to prevent damage from minor accidents, and provide at least two inches of slide movement. The ones I build (and the one of the Martin) were pretty primitive mechanically. In the ones that I built, I didn't do any soldering at all, but attached the mechanisms to the instruments using nylon wire ties.

Rick "thinking it would be easy for the manufacturers to provide main-slide tuners" Denney

[windshieldbug]

Don't expect your horn to redesign itself, use your

[tbn.al]

I have a Marzan Euph with the main tuning slide pointing up with a thumb ring to facilitate tuning any note. That is the problem. You can tune any note. I have enough trouble remembering which slide to pull how much on my Miraphone for the marginaly out of tune notes. The issue is much more complicated when you are using just one slide to tune everything. If you are not careful you can get totally out of whack. I've caught myself pulling while also lipping up. It's really very confusing. For instance the first valve Eb at the bottom of the treble clef is quite sharp on this horn. I find it much less confusing to use 13 alternate which is spot on than trying to pull. I find myself using the main slide just as I would the first valve slide on the tuba. If a sustained note is really bad I might pull or push. Otherwise alternate fingerings work better for me.

[OldsRecording]

But the bigger question is, why don't MORE instruments have them? OR why don't more players use rods/triggers/... to acheive the same goal?

My trumpet has a spring-loaded trigger on the third valve slide and it always seemed much easier to use than a ring or one of those oarlock-shaped thingies, and I never understood why more horns don't have them.

[Chuck Jackson]

"And, the Yamaha 641 is a direct copy of the Mirafone. Ask 'em."

I beg to disagree. The 641 is almost an exact clone of the MW 25 right down to the 4th valve slide on the front of the horn. I own a 641 and it is nothing like any Miraf(ph)one I have ever played, either ergonomically or response wise. Personally, as good as my 641 is (the BEST example I have ever played) it is not as good an instrument OVERALL as 99% of the Miraf(ph)ones I have played. The 641 has a huge bore (.820) and is a cannon-cocker until you to the 8th partial where it is as hard to play as a Kiaser Alex BBb I once owned. From BBBb to F in the staff, it is the most resonant and colorful instrument I have ever owned. The Mirafone is better to me because it is more facile past the 8th partial and has lighter valves. The sound in the cash register lags behind the 641. On the 641 the only note I ever had to pull for was the abysmally sharp G on the top space. The rest of the horn is set and play.

I have owned a Marzan, Boehm&Meinl, and 2 Alex's that had either a factory built upward pointing main slide or custom installed main slide jiggers on the Alex's. On the Alex's I had them taken off and played the chinese fingers that worked and on the Marzan and B&M I set them with rubber gromets and let them be unless I was playing low F and below and then I pulled. Ears should dictate, but the mechanical end can help facilitate the fine tuning.

Chuck

[Steve Inman]

Hmm. In 1971, as an 8th grade tuba student, we got brand new Miraphone 186 BBbs -- wonderful horns.

Based on E's info re: the ubiquitous Miraphones, I guess I should be surprised that upon entering HS in 10th grade, we got brand new MW horns -- very nice, heavier gauge metal than the Mira's -- I assume they were 25's, but I don't remember them being quite a tall as an older, used 25 I just looked at last weekend at WWBW.
We liked them better than the Miraphones -- darker sound, but took a bit more air as I remember.

Cheers,

[Chuck Jackson]

flame bait, but I am not trolling:

In 1977-'78, I taught the tuba students at K.U. (University of Kansas). Dr. Foster decided to buy a "new and exciting" Yamaha 641 rotary BBb. One arrived. The pitch was horrible in the upper part of the staff, and response was very tenuous at the top of the staff. I was hoping for something better for my students. The store that sold it to the school picked it up and replaced it with another... ' same problems. By then - though I hadn't yet informed anyone - I had decided that I was not going to stay, so (as they REALLY wanted one of those tubas) I simply said, "whatever".

Twenty years later, I taught the tuba students at Ole Miss (University of Mississippi). They had - just the year before - bought two or three 641 Yamaha rotary BBb tubas. They were the same wretched instruments. As all of the "old" tubas were right in the room where I taught, I had students playing on old worn bell-front King 2341 tubas to practice and play for lessons and recitals, and they (to please the band director and to avoid waves) were using those wretched/shiny Yamaha tubas in the concert band.

I really don't think they are copies of M-W 25 tubas. M-W 25 tubas CAN BE PLAYED. Further, there are quite a few other physical differences. I think the Yamaha 641 is just a tuba...and not a copy of anything in particular.

I generally agree with Joe. Besides my personal 641, the only one that was as good was Wade "Elephant" Rackley's that he had when we were students at the USAESOM. The others have been wretched instruments. But, mine is as hard to play in the upper register as an Alex Kaiser BBb. Due to it's large bore the upper register is really bad. I would never want to "live" above the 8th partial on the thing, but anything up to it I have found to be dandy. Even mine has a good low Ab, a dreaded note on the majority of these horns. The small bell flare (16 1/2") combined with it's larger bore and mostly open wrap make it one of the most present tubas I have ever played. I have listened to recordings of my playing on various CC's and the 641 and I was surprised how much sound the horn put out up to the 6th partial, after that it is a crap shoot. Thankfully I had a good bass tuba to do most of my quintet work on as well as the lighter orchestral stuff. And I will add my own flame bait: I have never played ANY Meinl Weston instrument that I liked, all the way from the 25 through the 2000's and various incarnations of the 2145, 55, and 65's. They seemed "hollow" TO ME (note capitals here ladies and gentlemen), kinda like Hirsbrunner instruments.

Chuck