Why don't more people use the main tuning slide?

tubatom91 · Post by **tubatom91** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:49 pm

The only 2 slides I move on my YBB-321 are the Main slide (only for open notes during warmup/tuning) And my 1st valve tuning slide, the Eb on the staff tends to be about 3-4in sharp(don't know how that correlates with cents but inches work good) and I only pull it if I take anything up an octave. Thank god the slide is right where I put my hand while playing. I never tend to have any other intonation problems on my horn (however much I hate it!!!).

MikeMason · Post by **MikeMason** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:17 pm

Ed, we don't need to call someone to know that unequivocally,the 641 doesn't resemble any miraphone model.It does pretty closely resemble the MW25.Would someone with some skill please post some pics of these 3 horns side by side...

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:51 pm

MikeMason wrote:Ed, we don't need to call someone to know that unequivocally,the 641 doesn't resemble any miraphone model.It does pretty closely resemble the MW25.Would someone with some skill please post some pics of these 3 horns side by side...

<img src="http://images.wwbw.com/products/full/Mi ... 86prv4.jpg"> <img src="http://images.wwbw.com/products/full/Yamaha/yybb641.jpg"> <img src="http://images.wwbw.com/products/full/Me ... /68508.jpg">

They all look like tubas to me...

Steve Inman · Post by **Steve Inman** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:12 pm

Chuck(G) wrote:
MikeMason wrote:Ed, we don't need to call someone to know that unequivocally,the 641 doesn't resemble any miraphone model.It does pretty closely resemble the MW25.Would someone with some skill please post some pics of these 3 horns side by side...
<img src="http://images.wwbw.com/products/full/Mi ... 86prv4.jpg"> <img src="http://images.wwbw.com/products/full/Yamaha/yybb641.jpg"> <img src="http://images.wwbw.com/products/full/Me ... /68508.jpg">

They all look like tubas to me...

Left - 186, Middle - 641, Right - MW25 (with 4th valve "up top")

The 1st and 3rd slides coming up top, side-by-side (641 in the middle) is a very distinctive MW trait -- you will see it at their web site for a number of horns -- contrabass and bass tubas alike.

As someone who has played a 186 AND MW25 extensively, and who has tooted on a 641, I would have to say that "Door #2 and Door #3" both look very similar -- even moreso if the MW25 used to have the 4th valve on the backside and not brought up top (sitting to the right of the 1st valve slide as you look at the horn).

(Insert Sesame Street song here: "One of these things is not like the others ....") I choose the 186 as the odd man out -- quite clear from the photos.

Therefore, any claim by Yamaha to be a clone of the 186 Miraphone must be "advertising" -- OR a result of very poor copying! (And we all know that "poor copying" is not a modern Japanese trait.)

Cheers,

MikeMason · Post by **MikeMason** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:20 pm

also keep in mind the 186 at the time was the smaller 16.5 inch bell.If someone is up for it,post an old 186 BBb,641,and an older 25.I think it would be even more different.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:18 pm

(insert food post here)

Chuck Jackson · Post by **Chuck Jackson** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:50 pm

I guess the previous posts says it all. Ed, you are wrong. Wade and I and another of others are right. I still like Miraf(ph)ones as an all around Tuba. THe MW Bell Model(Kudos to Robert Coulter for bringing that horn to light) is the only good product to come out of the factory (I have played 3 that were very good instruments), and I still think that Hirsbrunners are THE most over-rated instrument ever made. Joe, I wouldn't embarass myself or the Thor by trying to play one, so if you say it's a keeper, it must be a good horn. Now, Fried Chicken anyone?

Chuck

MikeMason · Post by **MikeMason** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:32 am

Chuck,one of the good qualities of the Thor is it's ease of play.I think you would probably sound just fine on one...

Chuck Jackson · Post by **Chuck Jackson** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:34 pm

MikeMason wrote:Chuck,one of the good qualities of the Thor is it's ease of play.I think you would probably sound just fine on one...

Thanks, Mike, but with my Focal Distonia, I can't even make a slide whistle sound good. The mind is willing, but the flesh is week.

Chuck"wishing with all the new horns coming out that he still could play even a bit"Jackson

Steve Inman · Post by **Steve Inman** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:49 pm

Chuck Jackson wrote:I guess the previous posts says it all. Ed, you are wrong. Wade and I and another of others are right. I still like Miraf(ph)ones as an all around Tuba. THe MW Bell Model(Kudos to Robert Coulter for bringing that horn to light) is the only good product to come out of the factory (I have played 3 that were very good instruments), and I still think that Hirsbrunners are THE most over-rated instrument ever made.

Yamaha Marketing Folks wrote:This horn has the traditional German sound, a tubing wrap reminiscent of the early Meinl Westons, the long leadpipe and bell of the Miraphones and the resonance of the Cervenys.

Notice that the quote tries to liken the 641 with MW, Mira, Cerveny. Was the 641 the first rotary horn Yamaha brought to the market? IF so, then one good way to try to establish it would be to claim, "It's just like all the other guys' good tubas out there -- HONEST!"

But that's just good marketing. To find out what's really true, "show me the data" says Steve The Engineer.

IF WRAP641 N.E. WRAPMIRA AND TAPER641 N.E. TAPERMIRA AND VALVETUBING641 N.E. VALVETUBINGMIRA, THEN 641 N.E. MIRA.

Chuck, again wrote:Joe, I wouldn't embarass myself or the Thor by trying to play one, so if you say it's a keeper, it must be a good horn. Now, Fried Chicken anyone?

Chuck

13 still equals 13, and all is well in the TubeNet universe!

Cheers,

UDELBR · Post by **UDELBR** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:12 pm

ed wrote:When the Yamaha design team started their thought process on the 641, they wanted to build the Miraphone 186.

Aren't you the same fella that swears up and down that everybody plays the Dies Irae in octaves because "that's how it's done"?

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:40 pm

Well, you all had me fooled. If asked, I would have guessed that the 641 is a copy of the Alex 163 without the intonation problems and without the Alex sound.

Shows what I know.

(Anyone want to by an Alex 163 or a Yamaha 641? PM me.)

Steve Inman · Post by **Steve Inman** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:23 pm

ed wrote:I admire your collective tenacity. That being said, it's rather perturbing that as a group, you seem to readily and regularly take conjecture as fact.

Ed -- The photos are hard data, and the 641 looks a lot like a MW25 and not similar to a 186. That's "concrete", not "conjecture".

ed wrote: When the Yamaha design team started their thought process on the 641, they wanted to build the Miraphone 186. They did it. In testing, they found that players could not distinguish a 186 from a 641 in all respects.
(snip)
The particular individuals to whom I spoke asked not to be named, but the conversation took place in the presence of a considerable amount of sake.

Did these players also consume a large quantity of sake before testing the horns?

Thanks .... that's the best joke I've heard all week! I've played all three of these horns and could easily tell the difference between a 641 and a Miraphone, playing them blindfolded. That's just more marketing hype.

Was the person you talked to a Japanese employee of Yamaha?

Cheers,

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:58 pm

the elephant wrote: ... If you were a non-tubist band director in 1981, you had probably never heard of Meinl-Weston. If you needed to get some tubas then you asked other band directors for adivce, and pretty much everyone at that time, across large swaths of the US, bragged and raved about their excellent Mirafones. The 186 was THE school horn for a few decades. ...

I believe that you are probably correct, but in 1972 when my High School (in NJ) band director (a trumpet player) decided to buy a new 4 valve rotary valve tuba to replace the 3 valve Besson compensator that he had me playing, he bought a Meinl-Weston that I believe to be a model 20. Since I was first tuba I was expected to play the new horn, and was excited to try it out, until I played it for a while. It was stuffy and didn't have anywhere near the sound that the Besson did. I would have gone back to the Besson in a second, but I couldn't, it only had 3 valves after all

. I don't know where they heard of it, but I noticed a number of the other high school tuba players in the State bands using M-Ws at the time.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:42 pm

trseaman · Post by **trseaman** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:47 pm

ed wrote:Thank you. You've all lived up to every last one of my expectations. I did expect certain people to post in this thread, but for one reason or another they failed to do so. Sometimes silence speaks volumes.

That's it for me, for a while. I'm going to go out and learn everything, so that I can be just like you guys. Then we can all sit here and agree on stuff. It's too inconvenient when people post stuff that doesn't match what we already know.

Though I'm sure you don't want it, I'd like to leave you with one last piece of advice: Learn to read. Especially people's posts. It helps.

And stop picking on little kids!

He said with his tail between his legs...

The exit is this way...

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:57 pm

I have been known to knit some long yarns together on this forum, but I know the rest of the guys would and will skewer me if I wasn't telling it like it is, and making it very apparent where fact ends and opinion begins.

I am not saying anything contrary, because I have not played a YBB-641. But I have played the older 5-valve CC version, whether it was called a 641 or 661 I can't remember, which I believe is no longer made. Maybe I just didn't get a good example, but with the placement of the 1st valve tubing, this particular example looked more like a M-W clone to me, with the large bore and small bell of an older Alex, an old-style left hand 5th valve, although granted with the long whole step instead of 2+3, and it just played worse than $#!+. There's not a Miraphone detail, copy or not, anywhere near that, well, pile of brass.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:26 am

ed wrote:Thank you. You've all lived up to every last one of my expectations. I did expect certain people to post in this thread, but for one reason or another they failed to do so. Sometimes silence speaks volumes.

You mean me? Well, given what you've been saying, and the vigor with which you have been defending it, I didn't see the need to add anything at all.

Rick "whatever" Denney

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:36 am

wade wrote:It was not exactly ubiquitous, but the 186 certainly had a very widespread following. There were plenty of places that had probably never heard of Miraphone at all, but it was the top selling public school tuba in the US for a long time according to several charts published by NAMM over the years.

I have this feeling, unsubstantiated by sake, that the only thing Yamaha was trying to copy from the 186 was its commercial success.

Rick "who would he floored if Yamaha didn't study all current instruments at the time" Denney

Steve Inman · Post by **Steve Inman** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:04 am

When "little kids" post like an adult, in an adult forum, then they will be treated as an adult, as they deserve.

When "little kids" post with insight, they will be afforded respect.

When "little kids" ask an honest question, we (most of us) quickly assist.

When younger posters provide "know-it-all" posts that are inaccurate, the inaccuracies will be pointed out.

When older posters post like they are "little kids" this too will be pointed out.

When trolls try to give advice, they will be ignored -- unless they provide gifts of sake ....

It's a forum populated mostly by adults -- or by those old enough to know how to behave in a "responsible" manner on an adult forum. Therefore, respect will be afforded as it is earned, whether someone is younger or older doesn't matter -- do the ACT younger or older is the question!

Cheers,