Where to buy an new F tuba -- and which one!

[Allen]

I finally decided to get a good F tuba, after a long time trying to make do with only a 4/4 CC horn. I do have a cheap 3-valve Eb, but that wasn't doing what I wanted. [I suppose I might consider an Eb tuba, but I would want it to be quite different from my CC.] The new tuba's use will be mostly in quintet or other smaller ensembles. I expect to do the occasional solo, and perhaps use it for higher tuba parts in larger ensemble settings.

I am intrigued by what I have been reading about some of the newer horns like the Mirafone Firebird and some others. I would like not to have to learn to coax out a low C, or deal with a lot of intonation issues. It sounds like some of the newer designs have a lot of these traditional F tuba issues sorted out, so I'm willing to buy new. My preference (for hand comfort) is for rotary, but I might consider pistons.

I checked with Matt at Dillon, but he has very few F tubas in stock now, and no Firebird (and the next few to come in are already sold). He does have a Yamaha 822.

I spoke to Roger Lewis at TubaDome (extremely pleasant guy to talk to). He has quite a few F tubas, but they're all in transit to the new store location (grand opening July 14). Roger himself isn't going to be very available until August.

At WWBW, the folks seem nice to talk to, and they are supposed to have a lot of horns in stock, but there didn't appear to be any tuba specialist. I haven't talked to Custom Music yet.

Now that I have to decided, I'd love to buy right away. However, I'm thinking that I should have some patience and perhaps take a couple if months or so for this purchase. For my shopping trips, I'll combine them with some visits to friends and/or vacationing.

My question: Can I have some shopping recommendations, both for stores and for tubas? Thanks 'Netters.

Cheers,
Allen

[Blake Dowling]

If you stop by custom music, I would sugguest either the PT-15 or 16. And if you're pocket book is fairly deep then I would sugguest the Hirsbrunner HB-10 and HB-12. they are piston horns but are at least worth a try.

[Richard Murrow]

Allen,

You might check with Don Sumwalt at WWBW or e-mail him, dsumwalt@wwbw.com. Don is currently their tuba go to guy.

[Steve Inman]

If you don't want to coax a low C at all, then you should look at the Yamaha 822 F. I don't know about the Willson 3200's low C, but I do know that the MW 45slp's low C isn't much different from other rotary F's. The Yamaha 621 and 822 F's have GOOD low C's. The 621 is a fairly small F.

If, however, you want the sound of a rotary F tuba, then the low C WILL feel different from other keys of tuba. It's a question of HOW MUCH coaxing can you tolerate.

If you want a rotary F sound and the best low C possible, buy the Firebird. Search no further.

If you want a rotary F sound and (evidently) absolutely no problems whatsoever, then buy the Eb Norwegian Star 283!

A few opinionated comments for a Sunday morning ... but then, isn't that what this forum is for?

Cheers,

[MikeMason]

I would second the firebird based on your wish list of qualities.WWBW has a bunch of them in stock.They really don't have a tuba expert.The yamaha 822 has a good low c,but they seemed to have just moved the problem down a step.The low BBb isn't good.If i was buying a new f it would be the firebird.The only other horn I'd like to try first would be the Gronitz piston f.Sounds like you need to plan a trip to Indiana/Detroit and hit WWBW,tubadome,and custom.Or you could do the east coast tour and hit Dillon's,Baltimore,and Tuba Exchange.Or you could go all the way and do all 6...

[jonesbrass]

Also, if your pockets are not so deep, talk with Matt at Dillon about the Cerveny 653-5. I've played the Firebird (Very nice horn), but for me the low range on the little Cerveny blows it away. Other experienced tuba players have played my horn and agree. If you're looking for solo, brass quintet, and non-huge orchestra F tuba, it would be a shame if you didn't check these little horns out. ESPECIALLY at this price point. Half the price of a firebird . . .

[MikeMason]

Jonesy, if what you're saying is true,it could change the entire landscape of f tuba.I'd love to try one.If it's better than a firebird,which is itself awesome,for half the price, wow...I might could sneak one of those into my basement without the wife noticing...

[pierso20]

I agree on the firebird.

I also REALLY REALLY like and recomend the MW 2182 listed above. It's a very compact horn, so it doesn't look very big but it puts out a pretty damn big sound. And both the C and Bb pop right out.

I also think the SLP C really isn't too bad. But it probably varies a bit from horn to horn. Just make sure you do make it out wherever and give em a try.

I personally am not in love with the B&S F's. Some people like the hirsbrunner's, but give 'em both a try at Custom Music.

WWBW...yeah, no tuba experts but the guy brought me every F tuba they had in stock so i get to play 'em all back to back. (even though there's a 3 horn limit )

[Albertibass]

Baltimore Brass is the place to go. And yeah for a tuba, ive heard a lot of good stuff about the MW 2182.

[Ferguson]

We have the Firebird, the 181 (6V), and the Gronitz piston F, the PF125, available for sale.

Steve Ferguson
www.hornguys.com

[Steve Inman]

Also, if your pockets are not so deep, talk with Matt at Dillon about the Cerveny 653-5. I've played the Firebird (Very nice horn), but for me the low range on the little Cerveny blows it away. Other experienced tuba players have played my horn and agree. If you're looking for solo, brass quintet, and non-huge orchestra F tuba, it would be a shame if you didn't check these little horns out. ESPECIALLY at this price point. Half the price of a firebird . . .

I used to own an early version of the 654 F, which I purchased from Lee Stofer -- it was labeled Amati / Harmonie, and was a hand-built (iirc) model for the Musikmesse -- identical to the current Cerveny 654-6, except for the brand label. THIS particular model did not have a low C as solid as the Firebird, but I'm certainly intrigued by the possibility that the 653 could have. Very intrigued! Thanks for posting your experience! Hmmmm .....

For reference:
http://www.amati.cz/english/production/ ... _Tubas.htm

[edit / add]: Where to shop? Dillon Music, Baltimore Brass, Custom Music, Tuba Dome, Woodwind & Brasswind, Hornguys -- those are the main ones I've heard of, and they've all been featured in this thread. There are a few others in the "Shops" section of Sean's site.

[jonesbrass]

I've not played the Harmonie version of the Cerveny F, but just visually, it appears that the Baby Arion (653) has a more open wrap. I've found the low C, B, Bb (and lower) is actually as easy to play (or easier) as most contrabass tubas are in this range. And the pedals speak all the way down to pedal Gb. All I have to worry about is making music.
YMMV, but I think the Cerveny CFB-653-5 is just about the best bang for the buck out there. If you're looking for an F, it would be a shame not to check one out.

[jonesbrass]

How does it sound in the pedal range? Nice and full like a good tuba should? Raucous but lovable like a bass trombone? Or sickly and weak like an alto horn or something?

Definitely nice and full, but you'll still sound like you, of course. If I push the volume, I get a nice "bite" that's typical of the German-style rotary tubas. You've got to try one for yourself.

[Allen]

Thanks a lot, guys! Every post has been helpful.

I'll let you know what happens.

Now, to some serious shopping...

Cheers,
Allen

[KevinMadden]

I'm surprised the MW 4xSLZ models were not mentioned at all in this thread. I was recently at Dillon's looking at F's and I had it down to the 45SLZ and the Firebird. I loved playing the Firebird i thought I sounded amazing on it. I liked the 45 also, just not quite as much. After talking with Matt about it, he tried a little experiment with the other tuba player who was in the shop looking at F's, we played the Firebird and the 45 (and 46) SLZ back to back listening up close and from across the room. The Firebird sounded great when you were over the person's shoulder. but when you stepped back it didn't really carry, the 45 sounded great from across the room. Also the intonation of the 45 is quite acceptable and its low range is pretty bangin'. thats my pick (and as soon as I get the loans, my new horn!)

[Bill Troiano]

Good for you, Kevin. You sounded great on your York too. See you back at IC.

[Allen]

I said I would report on my F tuba quest, and here it is.

After doing some tire kicking and trying out, I got some guys who play tuba for a living to help out. A road trip to Dillon was ordered up. Much trying out ensued. I concentrated on the key of F, but my biddies managed to try out every tuba (in every key), every large wall-hanger, and every tuboid object. Some quotes: "Ya gotta try this; it's the worst tuba I've ever blown." "Here, have a toot; see how a $20,000 tuba plays." And then Matt Walters let us try out a horn he was building for himself. It was a completely fabulous C frankentuba. But it wasn't for sale, and anyway I was fixated on F.

The winner? [I pretty much know this when I set out to Dillon.] A new Yamaha 822 F in silver plate. The best mouthpiece for it (and me with it) was a Yamaha Roger Bobo Solo (in gold). Unlike most F tubas, this one has a real low end. Not only was the C below the staff and easy and excellent note, so was the C an octave below; it just popped out! And, all the notes between. Up higher, it both sings and is agile. Completely unlike earlier versions of this tuba, the pitch is excellent. The only note really needing a slide manipulation is low G (3 ledger lines). 2345 is sharp, and 1345 is flat. 1345 with a first slide push is right on. I suppose if it had a 6th valve there would be more possibilities.

Now, I'm busy learning to drive this new acquisition. I'm catching on to F fingerings, but my fingers still try to do C fingerings sometimes. My few attempts to play from treble clef music (I can do it on a C tuba) convinced me to get bass clef under control first.

There's more to learning a new key tuba than the fingerings. I have to use air differently. And, although I can play every note in tune without much effort, I sometimes have trouble hitting every note in tune. Don't tell me; I know: practice, practice, practice!

I got the tuba about a week and a half before the NETEW workshop which I attended. I decided to use the new F tuba for everything except for where a contrabass tuba was required (the daily warm-up hour). Finally, two and a half weeks after getting the F, I did my solo recital piece (Six Little Tuba Pieces, by Gordon Jacob). Now, to get ready for quintet rehearsals in the Fall.

I'm enjoying the new horn very much. It has opened up a huge number of musical possibilities. Of course, it appears that there is no end to tuba acquisitions. My buddies are suggesting that now that I have a more specialized F horn, I might want a more specialized C tuba instead of the all-round one I have now. No, I'm not going to get another tuba. No. Not at all. Of course not......

Cheers,
Allen

[MartyNeilan]

I say ditch the C and play on the F only!!
...
I believe he plays a rotary Meinl Weston C tuba (I think the model 32-ish one?).

FWIW, there may be more than a little truth to Bob's first comment. The big Yamaha F plays and sounds like a "small 4/4"* CC, and may likely overlap the MW32 quite a bit tonally.

*When are they going to start sizing tubas in 1/8ths ??? My Weimar is really a 7/8 horn - plays way too big for a 3/4 but it is definitely not quite a full 4/4. And my new K2001 (yay me as of 2 this morning) is bigger than most 5/4's but just shy of a true 6/4 - making it a perfect 11/8.

(And some so-called 5/4 horns that have cropped up in the last few years really should be called 9/8 )

[Allen]

I say ditch the C and play on the F only!!
...
I believe he plays a rotary Meinl Weston C tuba (I think the model 32-ish one?).

FWIW, there may be more than a little truth to Bob's first comment. The big Yamaha F plays and sounds like a "small 4/4"* CC, and may likely overlap the MW32 quite a bit tonally.
<snip>...

An answer and some observations/opinions:

My C tuba is a MW 32, a very nice five rotary valve medium size (4/4) contrabass horn. It is easy to play in tune, and has a great tone. It also has the fastest and most confortable valves of any tuba I have ever tried. I got it to be an all-round tuba, and it works well in wind bands and in quintet, and also some traditional jazz. I'm very attached to it.

The Yamaha 822 F tuba I recently bought is indeed a large bass tuba, and musically can overlap a medium size contrabass tuba for some kinds of music. [I don't understand the logic of Yamaha calling it 4/4 size.] It is a more specialized instrument, with much more agility and ease of playing high than a contrabass tuba.

For the following remarks, please keep in mind that I am an amateur player, with limited practice time (I have a day job and a family). Therefore, I need all the help I can get from my equipment. For example I'm not going to play really high stuff on a contrabass tuba, as I find that it's too hard to control things and reliably hit the right notes. A bass tuba is much easier (for me) to play accurately up high.

Although the lowest notes I can play and the highest notes I can play are the same on both contrabass and bass tubas, the ease and the musical effect are quite different. Above a certain pitch (mostly related to bell size), a tuba stops being a resonator that gives the tuba sound we all love, and turns into a non-resonant megaphone, merely amplifying the buzz from the mouthpiece. Although I'm willing to listen to my mouthpiece buzz when I practice with mouthpiece alone, I don't want to hear that coming from a tuba. My non-tuba playing friends think the mouthpiece buzz sort of sound even top professionals have when they play really high sounds terrible. I guess only tubists like it. In my opinion, there is a real limit to the highest MUSICAL note that can be played on a given tuba. That note is relatively higher on a bass tuba, and can be higher on tubas with smaller bells.

On low notes, the difference between bass and contrabass tubas is the quality of sound. Down low, the contrabass will have a fatter, more foundational sound, comparared to the bass having a more rattling tone with no fundamental component at all. Musically sometimes we want one kind of tone, sometimes the other. Composers will use bassoon, bass clarinet, bass trombone or tuba for their contrasting bass tone colors. However for full ensemble support, they will use tubas (and double-bass viols).

To Bob1062: Bob, from your various posts I infer that you like the kind of tone a bass trombone or small bass tuba gets down low. No argument there; I like it too. However, I like that big, broad contrabass tuba sound even more down low. Best of all for me is to have a choice between those sounds. So, I'll keep playing a contrabass tuba as well as my new bass tuba.

Regarding Marty's remark about the overlap between my big Yamaha F and my medium MW C tubas, I think they do somewhat. If I didn't own any tubas and set out to buy two contrasting tubas, I would have picked the same bass tuba, but would have picked a bigger contrabass tuba. In fact, when I was at Dillon's my buddies were suggesting that I would start to want a bigger C tuba! However, after emptying my wallet to buy one tuba this Summer, I'm going to wait a bit before doing any more purchasing. I also would hate to get rid of my MW 32 tuba, as I like it so much. [Solution: Keep it, and just buy more tubas?!? What will I need to buy for my wife to compensate?] One of these days, I'll do something. [What? When? Stay tuned...]

Cheers,
Allen

[MartyNeilan]

Getting a third tuba gets my vote. You'll be glad you did.
Doc

Drag racers like to say, "There's no replacement for displacement."
The same largely holds true for tubas.
You can make a smaller tuba play loud and you can make a smaller tuba play low.
BUT
There is nothing like that Big Tuba Sound® (BTS)©