"orchestra," "band"

[Chuck(G)]

I listened to the Ohio State Wind Symphony play a superb concert a few weeks ago. The tuba players were all playing variations on the PT-6: largish front-action piston CC tubas that would be at home in any orchestra. They sounded just like I would want orchestral tuba players to sound: Rich and colorful.

Naxos has a CD (8.570244) by this group that features a transcription of the Dvorák Serenade for Strings in E major. Normally, I'd say, 'feh, who cares?" but it's very good and played with sensitivity. The fourth movement is to my ear, the weakest, but it's well worth a listen, nonetheless.

While I could hear string bass in this transcription, I'm not sure about tuba.

[windshieldbug]

Don't chat with the conductor.

I don't understand why not? I usually chat to the conductor. Good idea to get on friendly terms and an idea of what sound they are looking to hear.

Understand that Bloke's idea of a successful gig is when the Maestro never utters the word "tuba"

... or looks across the orchestra to say, "Nice job, tuba!"

[Rick Denney]

... or looks across the orchestra to say, "Nice job, tuba!"

Even that is dangerous, unless it's a real solo. I'd rather the conductor just take me for granted.

Rick "now speaking for himself" Denney

[sloan]

Nothing wrong with playing a Pt-6 in a band.

Say, Dr. Sloan: Looks like you got someone.

naah. I just wanted the opportunity to point out that I sat next to a PT-6 in community band the other night.

Sounded pretty good to me.

[sloan]

... or looks across the orchestra to say, "Nice job, tuba!"

Even that is dangerous, unless it's a real solo. I'd rather the conductor just take me for granted.

Rick "now speaking for himself" Denney

And for me.

When the conductor says "nice job, tuba!", one has to wonder "you mean, compared to my usual rotten job?"

[windshieldbug]

Sorry guys, I guess I was thinking of Guest Conductors...

[kingrob76]

Interesting thread.

I have to disagree with some of the opinions stated in so far, though, and offer a different perspective. The majority of playing I do these days is with community Orchestras and the rare paying Orchestra, plus quintet work. I can count on one hand the number of Band gigs I have done in the last 5 years.

Orchestral playing is about making as "characteristic" of a "tuba" sound as you possibly can, IMO. Sometimes the parts call for larger instruments and something the parts call for smaller instruments. But it is always a tuba part, written by the composer because he wants a tuba sound to voice the part. It's a challenge in an orchestra to have good intonation with a disinterested bass section or pretty much any 2nd bassonist, nevermind the axe murder playing bass bone.

Band playing is also about making a very characteristic sound as well, but there are times when you are playing parts that were originally written for String Bass or Contrabassoon. There are times when you play String Bass, Bari Sax, or Contrabass Clarinet cues (due to lack of instrumentation). The range of the types of sounds I have to have to "bring with me" for a band gig is broader and depending on the rep can be a very welcome challenge. Intonation is a challenge here because of the multiple tubas (usually) plus Euphoniums, Bari Sax, Bassoons, etc.

I am of the opinion, and the approach, that when I am playing a String Bass cue (or part) I try to make my sound more like that of a String Bass, and when I am playing (what would be) a String Bass part in an orchestral transcription for band I approach that differently as well. I guess I hear a different sound in my head and try and portray that sound as part of the performance. I use different mouthpieces, and I'll start/end notes differently, unless it's a Bari Sax cue in whcih case I play as ugly and out-of-tune as possible. I also find that playing in an orchestra allows me more of a chance to be more expressive in my playing. Sometimes it's hard to be expressive when you're one of six tubas. It's still a challenge but I think they are quite different in nature and I use very different approaches.


Rob

[iiipopes]

I agree that it is difficult to play upright bass cues in concert band music and have them blend with the right tonality, as most of the time I have seen such, it is scored with the single upright bass being underneath a light woodwind scoring.

[Tubaguy56]

The tuba is a color voice in the orchestra, as has been pointed out. Trying to out-dark everyone else undermines the color the tuba can provide.

Now, I never said to out dark anyone. The string basses have us on that front most of the time anyway. My point was that in order to appropriately blend with the colors of an orchestra, I personally like a darker sound than some people play with. I also say this to contrast the fact that I like to use a brighter more lyrical sound for band. the point has also been made that you should change depending on what instrument your supporting, in this I actually prefer a darker sound than many use to support the trombone section, because if you don't overdo it it can actually make the trombone section sound bigger. My reasoning for this is that I've been very frustrated with some orchestras that I've seen where the tubist actually does too good of a job being a 4th (or 5th) trombone, and loses the point of being a tuba.

Bo "it really is all a matter of opinion though" Atlas

[Rick Denney]

I am of the opinion, and the approach, that when I am playing a String Bass cue (or part) I try to make my sound more like that of a String Bass, and when I am playing (what would be) a String Bass part in an orchestral transcription for band I approach that differently as well. I guess I hear a different sound in my head and try and portray that sound as part of the performance. I use different mouthpieces, and I'll start/end notes differently, unless it's a Bari Sax cue in whcih case I play as ugly and out-of-tune as possible.

When I play cues, I try to match the composer's intent. But there's no way a tuba can sound like a bassoon, so I don't even try. The audience won't know that it was written for bassoon. I still have to play it lightly, of course, to balance the others playing at the same time.

String-bass pizzicato is where the tuba player really has to put the sound in his head. Nearly always, the point of the bass line is to provide a ringing percussion to drive the pulse. I play with a distinct attack and a ringing decay, and in the case of a walking bass, I might not even tonque the notes, but play through them as if slurred, rearticulating with the breath. That keeps it in the "felt but not heard" category as much as possible.

At least, that's what I try to do. Execution is another matter.

Rick "probably sitting next to Rob for a significant percentage of those band gigs" Denney

[Rick Denney]

My reasoning for this is that I've been very frustrated with some orchestras that I've seen where the tubist actually does too good of a job being a 4th (or 5th) trombone, and loses the point of being a tuba.

Of course, that depends on the context of the music. In many cases, the tuba in the composer's head was probably more trombonelike than anything we would play today. The composer may have intended the player to fit in rather than stand out.

I would go further and say that the main difference between Jacobs's view of himself in the orchestra and that of some of his contemporaries hinged on whether the tuba plays a contributing role to the brass or whether it stands as its own distinct voice. I go with the latter, but not always.

Rick "who prefers 'deep' to 'dark'" Denney

[windshieldbug]

unless it's a Bari Sax cue in whcih case I play as ugly and out-of-tune as possible

Silly, those are viola cues, and that's the difference between orchestra and band; the other sections that one makes fun of!

[Chuck(G)]

Let me take a stab (please be gentle). I don't think I'm saying anything new.

An orchestra really consists of a number of very distinct ensembles. Rimsky-Korsakov refers to the "string quartet" part of the orchestra (I and II violins, violas, celli with the optional basses).

There's also a brass choir (trumpets, horns, trombones and tuba). And a woodwind ensemble (flutes, oboe, clarinet, bassoon).

The horn can straddle all three sections, and I suspect that if you ask a good hornist, she or he would tell you that the technique for playing with each section is qutie different.

But if you're playing tuba, you're almost always going to see the guy sitting next to you playing also. In the rare case that this isn't going on, you're playing to produce a novel or comic effect.

So, you can probably be pretty safe in orchestra if you produce a good sound that blends with the brass choir.

In band, you're pretty much the bass section. You're going to end up playing with just about every other instrument in all sorts of combinations. You're a utility voice, not a specialized one. When a band plays, the listener isn't so much interested in the characteristic sound of a tuba as the presence of a bass voice.

Does this make any sense at all? I'm not sure myself.

[Tubaguy56]

okay, let me try to further clarify the things I say again (I can never seem to get it just right)

My thing about band, is that yes you are the bass voice, but a concert band plays with a much less (in the words of Rick Denney) "deep" sound. A certain amount of depth is added in an orchestra by violas, cellos, and Basses, not to mention the sheer amount of them. it just seems to ME, that if I played with the amount of depth I use in orchestra (most of the time, not counting exceptions), would seem out of place in concert band (most of the time, there are exceptions).

This is where I differ from Chuck...

Alot of focus is placed on blending with certain instruments, and matching them in a certain way. However, I would like to take into account mass tutti sections. If everyone's playing, and your lines alternate with the basses, and the brass (and lets throw bassoon in there somewhere), are you going to change your sound drastically everytime your line gets switched? probably not. I'd aim to have my sound darker than the bass trombone (or deeper if you must), and less deep than the basses. This I feel creates a more complete texture forming a bridge between the basses and the brasses. This is similar to the role the horn plays in that they often bridge gaps within the orchestra, woodwinds, strings, brass, etc. This is a big part of why I very much disagree with aiming to sound like a 5th trombone, rather, I aim to sound like a tuba thats making the trombone sound more deep, if you will. Another great example of forming a bridge between sections is the euphonium in band. I've played sections where I've played with the horns, euph, and myself, and the euph was the middle voice of the group, helping to create a unified sound.

The overall message is this, rather than focusing on the small picture of where you fit in with the guys next to you, I like to focus on where I fit in the overall texture of a group.

Bo "that's how I think of it, maybe I'm crazy" Atlas

[Wyvern]

In band, you're pretty much the bass section. You're going to end up playing with just about every other instrument in all sorts of combinations. You're a utility voice, not a specialized one. When a band plays, the listener isn't so much interested in the characteristic sound of a tuba as the presence of a bass voice.

Does this make any sense at all? I'm not sure myself.

That sort of makes sense to me. I have never really thought of it, but in the band I usually just concentrate on providing a good bass to the ensemble - not particularly attempting to sound tuba like. The thing is to provide a good foundation for the group.

In the orchestra I pay a lot of attention to producing a good tuba like sound. I never go with this blending with the trombones. If the composer had wanted that, he would have written a fourth trombone.

[Chuck(G)]

Actually, Chuck, my experience is that I play with the brass only some of the time. About 40% of what I end up playing is either soloistic with the low strings or woodwinds (the later with a LOT of John Williams stuff) or is solo against strings. )

Much 20th century music has its own rules and it's very difficult to generalize much. When I wrote the above post, my mind was firmly wedged in the 19th century.

But I think that the tuba being a utility bass voice in band theory has some merit. Maybe?

[iiipopes]

Gimme a march with a good break strain any day. I'll have a lot more fun than counting hundreds of measures of rests for that one fleeting moment, albeit such a spectacular moment it is. (Now where is that "tongue-in-cheek" emoticon before I get flamed....)

[kingrob76]

But I think that the tuba being a utility bass voice in band theory has some merit. Maybe?

I think you hit the nail on the head.