Yam 321 Euph ?s

[MikeMason]

Does anyone know offhand if you can change the smaller old style buttons to the newer larger ones without changing stems?I know on some horns this would throw off the alignment.I got a great condition older one recently for teaching purposes and would like the larger buttons.Also,does anyone know the process for changing the screw-in metal valveguides to nylon?Thanks...Also,other than a 51d ,any mp suggestions?Small shank...

[iiipopes]

What are you looking for in a mouthpiece different from a 51D -- range, tone, intonation, air management/feedback, etc.?

[MikeS]

I really like the 321's, but I think it's important to realize that they are different beasts than the Brit-style 3+1 compensators. My experience is that the mouthpieces that work well on, say, a Besson work less well on the Yamaha. On the other hand, I don't think 51D's work well on Bessons.

My own choice for this horn is a Perantucci 4. It's based on the 51D but has a rounder rim that I find more comfortable. The cup is a little deeper and has a substantially larger throat than the 51D. My tone and intonation are both better on the 4 than the 51D. I believe that Lucas Spiros, formerly of the Marine Band, worked with Custom Music to design this mouthpiece. For some reason, when Custom first offered euph mouthpieces they used a Bach-like "smaller the number, larger the mouthpiece" numbering scheme. In the early '80's the decided to reverse the numbering. I have one of the old ones, which is labelled "2" and two of the newer versions, which are labelled "4." They are all the same.

Another mouthpiece that works well for some folk on this horn is a Bach 3. This is going to sound a bit brighter than the 51D but it can be a good option if you need a bit more chop room. I see these come up on that auction site fairly often so you can give it a try for not much money.

[druby]

Mike,

Here are some posiibilities fo your older Yamaha 321:

1. Valve guides: Are your old guides worn or do you just like the replaceability and quietness of the new ones? The mechanism is completely different (i.e pistons, guides, retaining washers, and stems are different). The plastic guides use a washer on top of the guide and a shoulder on the stem. There is a hole in the top of the valve and a small "nipple" on the bottom of the plastic guide that provide alignment. Your older screw-in guides fit in a recess in the piston. You would probably have to drill the alignment hole in your old valves to convert. While you can get the new guides here: http://cgi.ebay.com/YAMAHA-Baritone-Par ... dZViewItem you still need to get the retaining washers (which need to be the right thickness to help maintain vertical alignment), and probably either machine your existing stems or get new ones. If it were me, I would probably just try to find a repair technician who has access to replacement screw-in guides, install new felt pads (and or cork/rubber) and declare victory.

2. Mouthpiece: I assume you are primarily a tuba player. But if you are also having students also use the horn then I would recommend the following:

a) Smaller than 51D - Bach 6 1/2AL works nicely and the younger stuident can get a nice (if somewhat light) tone using this mouthpiece on this horn. I played the 6 1/2 AL all through college (albeit this was 35 years ago).

b) 51D - Good all round and somewhat larger than the 6 1/2AL. You get a warmer sound without giving up to much on the high end.

c) BB1 (small shank) - Deeper and darker than the 51D but not too large.

d) Denis Wick 4AY (or alternatively the Steven Mead SMB4 baritone MP) - Companion to the 4AM and 4AL. Classic british euphonium mouthpiece adapted for the Yamaha 321 specifically. This mouthpiece will give you the closest to the dark "British" sound from this horn. If you want the "Boosey/Besson" sound at the Yamaha price, use this mouthpiece. It is also about the largest mouthpiece you can get in tenor shank for a euphonium without going to custom designs. I would think for a tuba doubler this would be best.

P.S. I am biased. I normally use the 4AL on my Sovereign and so would be inclined to use the 4AY on this horn. In a standard "tenor trombone" MP the 4BS is more available than the 4AY but is not as deep and open.

Doug

[druby]

I'm pretty sure that the Wick SM (Steven Mead) series mouthpieces are available in small shank sizes.. but they are listed as "Baritone" shank mouthpieces... and I don't believe that they go all the way upto the SM2.. I think that the largest size in the small (baritone) shank is the SM4... they offer the SM9B, SM6B and SM4B.

You are correct. The cup size of the Denis Wick 4A series (4AL, 4AM, 4AY) is similar (not quit the same) as the SM4, SM4M, SM4B. The SM4B is the largest "small shank" mouthpiece that Wick makes for Baritone/Euphonium.

Doug

[arul]

Yes, you can use the new larger buttons. Your local shop should be able to order them for you. I like the larger buttons a lot better.

I also have the old metal valve guides on my horn (circa 1984). It didn't seem worth it to me to make this change. I haven't had a lot of trouble with my guides. The best solution for me was to find a good repair person to work on my horn.

Arul

[Bob Mosso]

If you want bigger and brighter than the 51D, I also recommend the 4AY or SM4B. Nearly identical except the 4AY has a sharper inner edge. I find the 4AY easier to articulate and easier to play in the high range. If you prefer a rounded inner edge go for the SM4B. I can't hear a difference in sound.

If you want smaller, nothing wrong with the Bach 6.5AL.

Personally I think the 51D is too dark.

[james]

I owned a 321 for a short time and had the metal valve guides. My advice would be to keep them as they last a lifetime. The noise bothered me initially and I added a small drop of linkage oil to each metal guide and never had noise again. The valves moved just as quick with the heavier oil. Just make sure it's a small drop right on the guide and that it stays in the channel intended for the guide and not on the casing.
As far as a mouthpiece...call Schilke. They have a pretty good selection of small shank mouthpieces not listed on their site. They are always helpful when it comes to recommending a mouthpieces based on you describing what you're looking for.
No clue about the buttons as the originals didn't bother me. You could always have a repair guy realign the valves after putting new buttons on. They usually keep 321 valve buttons in stock as this is a popular school choice of horn.
-james


*****Another option would be to put a different receiver on the leadpipe. A small British Eb TUBA receiver would work well as it is the same size a large euphonium receiver. You would then have a larger selection to choose from. The cost would be less than $50 for the part and work. PM Bloke for more details/suggestions.

[Will]

Yes, you can use the new larger buttons. Your local shop should be able to order them for you. I like the larger buttons a lot better.

Even the newer buttons were too small for me. I ended up putting tuba buttons on my 321. As a tuba player first, I prefer the feel of the extra large buttons.

[Will]

Here are some pics of my 321. I had a Weril large shank put on and replaced the buttons with tuba buttons. You can see where the valve caps had to be worked so the wider buttons wouldn't hit the raised edges of the caps.

Sorry for the extra LARGE pics. I can't get them sized down. The upside is you get to see some great detail.

<img src="http://i12.tinypic.com/52lhht5.jpg">

<img src="http://i14.tinypic.com/61nnrbt.jpg">