Los Angeles area orchestra to FIRE 65 MUSICIANS

[windshieldbug]

I've wondered what a modern orchestra would be like if it was run the same way a lot of commercial operations are. Tenure? Ain't no such thing--you can get laid off a day before you're vested for retirement--or just because you've turned 50

One reason that musician unions exist is because you don't spend just four years training for level of competence demanded by your employer. Nor does you employer expect or even offer any professional training once you've accepted a position. FOR YOUR POSITION OR TO "RETRAIN" ANOTHER 20 YEARS FOR ANY OTHER.

And yes, there IS a real parallel. The university education system. Since these days one is almost expected to have a doctorate or be actively persuing one, tenure after a reasonable period is a fair result for all one's preparation.

Is it POSSIBLE that a fair-minded organization could exist without these guarentees? Sure, but not ALWAYS, as seems to be the case reported.

[Biggs]

In all seriousness, anyone I would flock to would have to know the difference between "effect" and "affect." Call me triskadecaphobic if you must.

I find it interesting that - as seldom as I use those words on this site - I have been incorrectly (??) corrected on their usage almost every time I've used them.

a changing culture which has affected the wealthy in the same way it has affected the pedestrian classes

affect Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from affectus, past participle of afficere

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/triskadecaphobic

You are correct that affect and effect are both commonly used nouns and verbs. However, effect cannot be used passively. That is to say, someone cannot be effected, but they can effect.

Examples of correct usages:

a.) The magician's show involved several visual effects.

b.) Over the last several years, the mayor has effected change in the community.

c.) Depression, among other affects, can strongly dictate the mental state.

d.) My ability to play the tuba is affected by my lack of practice time.


I believe the "incorrect" corrections you refer to were offered by me (at least in some instances), but the fact remains that they were not incorrect. Further review of the dictionary definitions you provided should give more insight into what I am trying to explain. Pay careful attention to the distinction between active verbs (i.e. "The boy threw the ball.") and passive verbs (i.e. "The ball was thrown by the boy."). When I have questions about issues like these, (nearly every day on the job) I refer to the AP Stylebook - the standard in mainstream English communication.

I don't mean to 'call you out' over what is, essentially, a trivial matter that will be and should be largely ignored by all other denizens of TubeNet. My intentions are simply to take a stand against ignorance (particularly widespread among my demographic), stubbornness, and wrongly presumed infallibility.

[Chuck(G)]

One reason that musician unions exist is because you don't spend just four years training for level of competence demanded by your employer. Nor does you employer expect or even offer any professional training once you've accepted a position. FOR YOUR POSITION OR TO "RETRAIN" ANOTHER 20 YEARS FOR ANY OTHER.

And yes, there IS a real parallel. The university education system. Since these days one is almost expected to have a doctorate or be actively persuing one, tenure after a reasonable period is a fair result for all one's preparation.

I know plenty of PhD's who work in industry (and a few of them have multiple doctorates). They don't get tenure and they're just as likely to get axed when the going gets tough as anyone else. (and they have the same amount or more of "education" as a university professor with tenure). The degree starts you off at a higher pay level, if your potential employer doesn't decide that you're overqualified. (What you do then, is to hide that degree if you want to eat--or serve up cones at Baskin-Robbins waiting for that ideal job).

The way to hang onto a job is to be an asset to your employer. If you're not an asset, you get pink-slipped. I don't know why it should be any different in any other field.

The 65 musicians in question appear to be surplus. How, from a business standpoint, does one justify keeping them on?

You're right on one aspect--universities and orchestras are pretty much the same game--most aren't self-supporting--they require either taxpayer money or endowments to operate. A university faculty member who can bring in endowments and grants is pretty much welcome anywhere and tenure is irrelevant.

I wonder what would happen if those musicians who are about to be furloughed brought in a few million from the well-heeled in Pasadena?

[lgb&dtuba]

Read Wade's posts on this until it sinks in. Good real world info there for aspiring "Art" musicians.

[Mark]

These organization receive government funds and donations from patrons; the money donated by patrons is excluded from taxation; for these reasons they OWE some loyalty to the community (which includes the musicians they employ).

So, if a member of the orchestra wins an audition with the Boston Symphony, are you saying they should deciline the job and remain in Pasadena because they owe it to the community that has paid their salary all these years?

You don't get it. It's the two orchestras that are getting tax exempt money from the community, not the musicians.

Huh? What do you think the orchestras were doing with that tax-exempt money?

I don't understand the antagonistic attitude toward musicians who are losing their jobs.

I have a lot of sympathy for those musicians and I wish that circumstances would have allowed them to keep their jobs.

[Mark]

If you can't understand that, you probably play for free or do a lot of 2 hour gigs for $25.

My wife and I spent nearly $4,000 on tickets to the Seattle Symphony last year (more than that if you include parking). I also make contributions to the Seattle Symphony and to a couple of other orchestras in the area. We know a lot of other "amateur" musicians that spend similar amounts on professional orchestras.

If I believed that the members of our local orchestras thought that way about us, I would find other things for us to do with our money. (Which, by the way, we earned without union protection, or tenure and through a couple of "layoffs".)

[Chuck(G)]

My wife and I spent nearly $4,000 on tickets to the Seattle Symphony last year (more than that if you include parking). I also make contributions to the Seattle Symphony and to a couple of other orchestras in the area. We know a lot of other "amateur" musicians that spend similar amounts on professional orchestras.

If I believed that the members of our local orchestras thought that way about us, I would find other things for us to do with our money. (Which, by the way, we earned without union protection, or tenure and through a couple of "layoffs".)

Thank you!

[Richard Murrow]

EuphManRob Wrote:

"Do TubeNetters with years of professional/mercenary /other experience have any pertinent words of practical wisdom for me and other young people just beginning their careers?"

Rob,

I'm not sure how much sage advice I do or don't have to offer, but I can tell you this: "Never put all your eggs in one basket"!

No matter how hard you work, how much you prepare, this is possibly the most fragile business known to man. Now before some of you who are in other professions get your feathers ruffled, here's why I say this.
1. No one has to have live professional music to survive. While it is usually done with more refinement than most non-professional performances, people have gotten along just fine for many years with some pickin' and grinnin' on the back porch by friends who never made a dime in their lives for playing music.

2. It is also fragile because at least in the freelance world you are constantly walking a tight rope so as to not upset the contractor or conductor. YOU rarely have control over who gets hired next, unless you are the contractor.

3. THe more different avenues you can create for yourself, i.e., teaching, playing, repair, merchandising, writing , arranging, etc., the better off you are. And don't forget doubles. When I went in the Navy MANY years ago as a tuba player, I had to learn bass, I already played trombone and the ability to have these doubles has definitely added more steak to the Murrow dinner table.

4. Get along with other musicians. Be cordial, be early, and be quite! Always thank the contractor at the end of the job. I have done alot of hiring in my career and it always amazes me when a player that I've never met before and called at the last minute only says, "Where's the check". No, Hi, I'm John Doe and I really appreciate the call. He just moved down on my list or maybe off the list!

5. Remember, in every major city, there are good players under every rock.

So the point is, even if you are in an unfortunate situation like the one in this thread, if you take care of business you can continue to work. Sometimes taking care of business is more than just how well you play!

[TubaingAgain]

I will have to stand up and CHEER as loud as I can after the Comment that Bloke just made!!!!!
After being involved for many years with "UNIONS" and seeing exactly what the American union stands for, I have just a few things to say.

Why is that a 53 year old steel worker makes 68k a year and has to sign his paycheck with a "X"

Why do Union autoworkers average $32.00 per hour plus benefits?

The list goes on for UNION workers.

No wonder imports to America are killing the domestic products.

Unions had a place, and a time in American history Back in 30's and 40's.

The time has come and alot of companies have seen exactly what the Unions do, protect workers that could not find work anywhere outside a union situation and drive up the price of their products.

I say leave all unions in the past where they belong and build a stronger America for tomorrow.

[Alex F]

Why is that a 53 year old steel worker makes 68k a year and has to sign his paycheck with a "X"

Because he gets paid to make steel under difficult and often dangerous conditions, not write union bashing posts on the internet

Why do Union autoworkers average $32.00 per hour plus benefits?

Why the hell not? What do you recommend? Minimum wage?

The list goes on for UNION workers.

No wonder imports to America are killing the domestic products.

Imports are killing American production because bosses have found sources of cheap labor where workers have few choices. This will not last forever. Some day, these folks will start demanding better wages and working conditions and as well.

Unions had a place, and a time in American history Back in 30's and 40's.


The time has come and alot of companies have seen exactly what the Unions do, protect workers that could not find work anywhere outside a union situation and drive up the price of their products.

Employment in the United States is, for the most part, "at will." This means an employer can fire any employee for any reason or no reason (with the limited exception of certain labor and anti-discrimination statutes). Where there is a collective bargaining agreement, terminations require proof of just cause and provide a grievance to challenge unjust termination.

I say leave all unions in the past where they belong and build a stronger America for tomorrow.

I'm sure you would be welcomed as "Man of the Year" in the so-called "right to work" states. Millions of hard working men and women disagree. I'm proud to represent many of them.

[Biggs]

My intentions are simply to take a stand against ignorance (particularly widespread among my demographic), stubbornness, and wrongly presumed infallibility.

If a know-it-all is going to stand on a podium and correct a know-it-all, that know-it-all should probably know that the stand-out word in their bigg post contained a couple of errors:

triskaidekaphobi[a]

Fo' sho'. My bad.

I don't mean to 'call you out' over what is, essentially, a trivial matter that will be and should be largely ignored by all other denizens of TubeNet.

That's not a problem at all: My name is Joe Sellmansberger. I live near Memphis, Tennessee...

...and your name is...??

My identity and location have been researched and determined by people far less capable than yourself. However, the fact that these people were far more interested in things like my identity and location probably gives an idea as to why they were far less capable.

[windshieldbug]

Unions have their place. Not the Jimmy Hoffa-Giant's end-zone-style place, and not the one that the public thinks of very much, but in SOME industries they do. Like classical music.

When I got my first sub gig out of school, the Personel Manager asked me if I had a card. "I've been trying to stay out as long as I can... " was my reply. And I had. Up until then, my experience had been much like what I understand bloke's to be, with rock and bop jazz bands my main experience. That was confirmed by what I read in the International Musician.

But I saw lots of management abuses. In a small state with lots of lawyers and corporate headquarters, the music buisness, espescially the classical music buisness is often full of egos. Patron egos, board egos. Often too big to put on one stage (and that's ONLY the conductor's ego... ). I saw people fired on a whim, particularly if they played correctly... ("Oh, it's not that I don't know the piece, if I cue you, YOU COME IN!", "...we don't need to schedule more rehearsal time, we ALWAYS go over and nobody demands overtime, if you don't like it, LEAVE", etc.).

It was in the 80's that we got our first meaningful contract. And the AFM was invaluable with that, providing similarly sized orchestra examples and background. Still, the corporate lawyers wouldn't commit to anything. It was the union solidarity that brought us anything.

During one difficult negotiation, we played for a year without a contract. It wasn't until we had non-binding arbitration that anything was accomplished. And the National supported us every step of the way, and gave us backing where we needed it.

Despite my poor initial expectations, I found the AFM critically helpful to our fledgling ROPA orchestra. A lot of abuses stopped. And, over time, more and more was settled "off the books" by simple cooperation. I am delighted to hear that SOME organizations do not need this assistence. But others do, and I would be remiss by no saying so here.

[Chuck(G)]

Mike, I think that one issue is that many musicians function as their own agents, leaving themselves open to abuse. When I did a lot of consulting, I wised up quickly and got a good lawyer to write my standard contract with teeth in it. So having a body with some clout to take your side is useful.

But some musicians have a steady engagement for years. Is having union representation any guarantee against abuse there? The union didn't get you the job after all.

[windshieldbug]

Mike, I think that one issue is that many musicians function as their own agents, leaving themselves open to abuse. When I did a lot of consulting, I wised up quickly and got a good lawyer to write my standard contract with teeth in it. So having a body with some clout to take your side is useful.

But some musicians have a steady engagement for years. Is having union representation any guarantee against abuse there? The union didn't get you the job after all.

No, I thought that I was confining my comments to orchestras, only, and tried to say so. And my experience in this area is limited to ROPA-sized orchestras.

I think that any classically-trained tubist will be required to follow the normal for any career path up progressively larger organizations, and I didn't want the aspiring orchestral tubist to think that the union was "only just a tax you need to pay".

[lgb&dtuba]

The quote levels are too nested to bother dealing with. If I've quoted you, then you know who you are.

Why is that a 53 year old steel worker makes 68k a year and has to sign his paycheck with a "X"

I think that your representation of steelworkers as illiterate says quite a bit about you and your attitudes.

Rather, I and others think the pay should bear some sort of reasonable resemblance to the cost of the job.

What the heck is the "cost of the job"? Perhaps you meant the cost of the goods or services? The pay is part of the cost of the goods or services.

Also, can you explain to me why a 53-year old steel worker should get paid $68k/yr while a 53-year old teacher with two degrees (or even a 53-year old college professor with three) should get paid 20, 30 or even 40k less than that??

Sure. Because that's what they each agreed to work for in their respective industries. It's the going rate. Should doesn't enter into it.

In many cases neither do degrees. Certain fields of endeavor require them and others don't. Having a wall full of degrees doesn't guarantee you a lucrative career. And not having alphabet soup after your name doesn't preclude one.

If you don't want to work for the going rate in any particular industry, then get out and get into another line of work. That's certainly one of the many reasons I'm in IT and not a professional musician.

It's not about how you view your own monetary worth, it's about how others view it. Specifically, those paying the wages.

[tofu]

--

[windshieldbug]

In orchestras, there's a small thing called "Dismissal For Cause".

If someone doesn't like the way I regard the bass trombone, they can kick me to the curb, same as anywhere. All tenure means is that when they do, they have to tell me why. If I'm not cutting it, I have to re-audition in front of the Music Director AND an audition committee, so it isn't just personalities.

Yes, it does happen. I've sat on a bunch of committees. And I've seen it go both ways, so in the classical music business, there ain't no dead wood, let alone only tuba players and only tuba fingerers...

[Biggs]

Teachers, paramedics, police, firefighters, etc. will never get paid on the same scale or by the same criteria for success in the marketplace as private business. Public service jobs are NOT market-driven, and they are designed that way. If the neighboring school or police force is much better than yours, you can't pay them more to come do their jobs in your community. There is no marketplace competition by design. The only competition is between the elected officials who oversee public jobs, and that helps no one. If politicians ran on the platform of getting public service workers salaries that were comparable to private sector, they wouldn't get past the primaries in election season. These jobs are deemed necessary to society, and as such, are government jobs, not subject to desires of consumers or the market . As a result, public service folk choose to work for whatever taxpayers are willing to give up and for whatever politicians are willing to risk their precious jobs and pathetic egos.

Public $$$ and private $$$ do not equate, rightly or wrongly. Don't like the pay in your public service job? Do something else.

Doc

I agree with much of your post except for the idea that "If the neighboring school or police force is much better than yours, you can't pay them more to come do their jobs in your community." The most affluent communities often have very strong public schools for exactly this reason; they can afford to hire the best, most experienced, and most well-trained teachers away from lower-paying jobs. Although the actual salaries are decided by the municipality in question, don't you think that the best school superintendents, police chiefs, city planners, etc. (any non-elected public servant) recognize their own marketability and consequently gravitate to jobs that can afford to pay them what they're "worth?"

Thus, my advice would be: Don't like the pay in your public service job? Get better at it.

For the record, I am employed in public service. My pay is competitive, but I am certain it could be topped in the private sector. If I were to seek the same job with a private organization, I have to imagine I would find myself competing for the job with individuals who have much more experience in the field.

[WakinAZ]

Aw, come on. The guys at work and my kids love that little guy that bashes his head to a bloody pulp over and over and over...