Yamaha moving?

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

If your human and you wish to have a viable and equitable society, (in the opinion of my late Dad and Grand Dad as well as Myself) the bottom line is not all that should be tended to. The business uses the infrastructure of the community, this includes the skills and labor of the work force the community provides in addition to its roads, sanitation, water and electrical systems, etc. All that were built and payed for by the dedicated people and businesses that went before. Its surprising and sad to hear the capitalist of today insists that inspite of there using these infrastructures, they have invested little of nothing into, they have no responsibility for or to the wellfare of that community and owe nothing to it other then a paycheck for one or two weeks efforts and nothing more.

Its complicated, maybe to complicated for the modern capitalist to understand and/or appreciate.

No politics, pfft!!



Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
Seattle, WA
206.241.5767
www.oberloh.com

[Sam Gnagey]

If your human and you wish to have a viable and equitable society, (in the opinion of my late Dad and Grand Dad as well as Myself) the bottom line is not all that should be tended to. The business uses the infrastructure of the community, this includes the skills and labor of the work force the community provides in addition to its roads, sanitation, water and electrical systems, etc. All that were built and payed for by the dedicated people and businesses that went before. Its surprising and sad to hear the capitalist of today insists that inspite of there using these infrastructures, they have invested little of nothing into, they have no responsibility for or to the wellfare of that community and owe nothing to it other then a paycheck for one or two weeks efforts and nothing more.

Its complicated, maybe to complicated for the modern capitalist to understand and/or appreciate.

Bullseye, Dan! I couldn't have said it better myself.

[andrew the tuba player]

[quote="bloke] which was a better car: the 1978 AMERICAN Motors Company Gremlin or the 1978 Toyota Corolla?
[/quote]

Hey! I like the gremlin

[Dan Schultz]

[

That Gremlin had the best darned six cylinger CAST IRON engine American Motors (Chrysler) ever produced!

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

The last time I paid my corporate income tax, they asked for c. 25% of our profit + a tax on the entire gross receipts. We also pay in c. 15% on Social Security that we will never see and probably 25% on any money that we take out of the company for our own use...ie. "income". There's also unemployment insurance, medi-whatever, and a jillion other taxes (or haven't you been hit with these as well?)...

Almost makes me feel bad for you. Being a sol-proprietor myself, I am not burdened with the worry of corporate life. instead, I get to live on the edge with all that I possess from a life's struggle at stake where some fool trips in my parking lot and sues me for all I have. Yeah baybe! Life on the edge.

Yeah, I know all about that stuff. I sign the checks every month here just as you do there. I have had many employees that are very expensive (especially the ones who have minimal skills). They work in the shop providing a service and providing me with there time doing so. How much is a % of your healthy days in life worth? What are you willing to pay for it? Social Security? = business expense, other taxes that pay for the roads, lights, water, safety, security,....ahm... maybe someday the health and well being of the people and not just the big corporations (It could happen) are all part of living in a modern city. Sadly, the BIG corporations don't pay there fare share relative to what they get out of the community and the political representation. Small businesses carry a disproportionate share of the load as do the residents and private property holders in that community. They employ the most people but seem to get nothing but lip service from politicians. The small businesses are connected to the community and are in my opinion the bedrock that supports it. Major corporations seem to be allowed to move abroad for cheaper labor where they can pollute the environment and use the people with out any responsibility to them or there families well being, even if they should be injured or killed on the job. They can make bigger profits for there share-holders and import the cheaper goods to the community they abandoned previously. And on top of it they have gotten huge tax breaks and at times received financial help from our own government in doing so. Man what a screwed up time we live in.

Corporations and individuals in the America of the past were taxed a microscopic fraction of the way they are today...yet so much was accomplished...Now why is that...

And who's books are you going by? What do you mean by ''microscopic fraction''? Its most probably because we were a young growing country with a solid manufacturing base. We had (for the most part) lower costs across the board. Share-holders did not expect or insist on the silly return % they think they deserve today. Insurance costs were lower or nonexistent. Labor cost less and was (sadly) often treated as disposable. We had import tariffs to protect our weaker home base industries and we exported to the rest of the world real, usable, durable, high value products that were considered the very best though maybe not the cheapest. We loaned money to other countries. We did not have the extent of BS involved to bring a product to market. A project was expected to be built on time and on budget. If you lied or cheated local, state or fed. govt. (ala Halaburton sp?) you went to jail. Industry was local from the top down and had its roots firmly planted in the soil of this country. Also, government prior to 1955 was a hell of a lot smaller and less wastefull then it is today. You had a look at the size of our military in recent decades and seen how much of the budget is dedicated to it as oppose to everything else? that costs $$$$$ and lots of it!

The vast majority of infrastructure that remains in place today is due to the toils and taxed labors of people who work for and own corporations... NOT in spite of them

True, all part of life in a modern society. It cost then as it does now. Maybe more, maybe less.

if todays corporations did not work very hard to pay as little tax as possible, 100% of them would all be kaput.

No, I don't buy this. Industry has a right to take advantage of tax laws as do we all. But the tax burden like the personal liability on such major corporations is not as high as you may think. The playing field is not the same for them as it is the rest of us. I trust you did not injure yourself extracting that statement from where I think you may have gotten it. Being self employed, L&I will probably not cover it. Sorry for the lengthy rant ya all, I'm a bit cranky tonight (neck/back problems again) and this has been a good distraction. Thanks Bloke.

Daniel C. "not a fan of the phrase: he who has the gold makes the rules" Oberloh

[Alex C]

Being a sol-proprietor myself, I am not burdened with the worry of corporate life. instead, I get to live on the edge with all that I possess from a life's struggle at stake where some fool trips in my parking lot and sues me for all I have. :x Yeah baybe! Life on the edge.

Like living on the edge? You are in a good position for it, the IRS has determined that the biggest cheaters on tax forms, file Schedule C's, not that you are one of these. They decided that somewhere in the range of $450,000,000 in taxes was not paid in 2006 and they are going to go out and get it.

For the first time in over 12 years they have hired new auditors. One thousand Americans (or at least people living in America) now have jobs with the IRS and their sole purpose is to audit Schedule C filers.

Information is courtesy of my accountant and is offered here free.

IMHO, anyone in business should incorporate. There are benefits and Schedule C is now a red flag.

[Alex C]

"Taxes are a necessary evil"....

Taxes are not necessarily evil. When the tax money is mis-used and abused that makes it evil.

Here's some evil for you: a one term US Congressman will get a pension of $15,000 a month at age 62. On the other hand, if we all banned together and got each of us elected to one term in Congress, then we could all collect $15,000 a month.

I tried to avoid as much political comment as possible, please don't ban me.

I suppose this is what happens when Big governemnent and big business butt heads...

---------------------------------------:?:

[tofu]

And who's books are you going by? What do you mean by ''microscopic fraction''? Its most probably because we were a young growing country with a solid manufacturing base. We had (for the most part) lower costs across the board. Share-holders did not expect or insist on the silly return % they think they deserve today.

Actually from the very beginning we were very dependent on foreign capital. Capital has always flowed across borders.
Major early capital intensive projects such as railroads and canals and plank roads had major foreign investors chasing the best returns they could globally get on their capital. These projects and the growth of the US (and it's economy) would have taken much longer without foreign capital. Major money came from the English & Dutch investors. While Americans worried in the 1980's about Japan buying up America they aren't even in the top 5, but the English are still #2 and the Dutch #3 in ownership of American assets

Insurance costs were lower or nonexistent.

Not true at all. Insurance was hard to get but it was expensive. Ben Franklin created the first US insurance company. Some of my relatives were charter members of the Chicago Board of Trade. The only reason they survived financially the Great Chicago Fire in 1871 was that their grain holdings were insured by English Insurance Companies. Those with American Insurance were in bad shape as American Insurance Co were in large part undercapitalized and failed as a result of the huge fire claims.

Labor cost less and was (sadly) often treated as disposable.

Yes there is truth to this. America for Europe in the late 18th, 19th and early 20th century was like Asia is to the USA today in terms of labor.

We had import tariffs to protect our weaker home base industries and we exported to the rest of the world real, usable, durable, high value products that were considered the very best though maybe not the cheapest.

Actually one of the reasons the USA has done so well as been our relative low tariffs & barriors to trade. Oh the isolationists among us rise up from time to time and inact tarriffs etc. but in general they get scrapped. Sometimes unfair trade practices amongst other countries force us to become even better at making our products and thus more globally competitive. As far as being the very best - well throughout the 17th,18th,19th and early 20th century American products in many areas were considered inferior even by Americans. I can remember folks in even the '60's wanting to buy European goods because they were thought to be better. Think of how folks in the 1960's-1970's thought about Japanese guality - they called it "Jap Crap". Now folks believe it to be superior - even to the point of preferring say a Honda built in Japan to one built in America

We loaned money to other countries.

That is only a post WWII phenomenom and we have been a net borrower for the last decade.

We did not have the extent of BS involved to bring a product to market.

Well some of that can be attributed to the labor standards inacted to curb the abuses you speak of earlier.

A project was expected to be built on time and on budget. If you lied or cheated local, state or fed. govt. (ala Halaburton sp?) you went to jail.

Oh gosh - graft & corruption go back to the very beginning of this country. Virtually every presidential campaign going back to Adams has railed about this. In many ways we have less of this because of sophisticated controls/oversight and the massive media that didn't exist 200 years ago. Nowadays we know about it because we have access to timely information distribution that didn't exist before. That doesn't mean it is more prevalent. I will agree we sadly still have way too much of it.

Industry was local from the top down and had its roots firmly planted in the soil of this country.

Whoa - not true at all. Foreign ownership has been huge from the very beginning especially in major capital industries like railroads and steel. Also many of those companies were started by immigrants from Europe who like Mexicans today sent money back home to the old country as well as recruited workers from friends & family "back home"

Also, government prior to 1955 was a hell of a lot smaller and less wastefull then it is today.

Well - the country was half the population size then so it stands to reason that government would be bigger. I agree that smaller government is preferrable. But it is a tradeoff. If you want better labor conditions, environmental protection, border protection, food protection etc then you get bigger more invasive government. It is a tradeoff. Folks bemoan big government but go nuts when the meat is infected with Mad Cow disease, or the water gets contaminated or their prescription contains bad medicine etc.

You had a look at the size of our military in recent decades and seen how much of the budget is dedicated to it as oppose to everything else? that costs $$$$$ and lots of it!

Well you need to go back and take a look at how much of the budget was for the Revolution, War of 1812, Civil War, Spanish American War, WWI, WWII, Korean Conflict, the Cold War, and Vietnam. We still aren't even close but we are much higher than we were in the '90's. It is a shame we have to spend so much. After WWII we decided Japan could not have much of a military - so we provided for their defense. They spent less than 1/2 percent GDP on defense. One of the reasons they could be so competitive economicly was they didn't and don't spend what we do on defense or in our case being the World's Cop. The cost of wars/defense has always been a problem going back to biblical times and many a country has been undone by the cost and resultant taxation.

Capitalists first duty is to shareholders. It will flee (and always has) when the natives (and not the owners of said capital) decide they amongst themselves will redistribute it.
There will be less (not more) jobs and a lower resultant standard of living. Warren Buffet often is asked about corporate charity. He always informs folks why it is not the corporation's job to redistribute the owner/shareholders money it is the corporations job to make money for the owner/shareholder. It is the owner/shareolders right to then do fit what they please with their share of the efforts. He does believe the owners should help/donate to their communities but that is their right to do as they please. Hard to find fault with a guy who gave away 33 Billion last year.

[OldsRecording]

So, in about 20some years, I'm guessing there will be a thread titled "When did Yamaha make its last good horns?" and we will all be waxing nostalgic for the 'good old days' of the late 20th and early 21st century...

[greggu]

Why question the quality? If they fail to meet quality standards they will not survive. When major corporations invest in plants in China they typically use new or at least modern equipment. They will be automated and have QC standards to continue to compete in the world market. Whether it is a horn or shoes, the Chinese plant will meet standards. Thats not to say you won't find cheap products in China, but major brand names maintain or improve quality.

My family and I try to refrain from purcahsing PRC products on religious and human rights grounds. I will go out of my way and even pay more for non PRC goods, but it has nothing to do with quality.

You can buy Chinese "Crest" or "Colgate" or dogfood and have problems, but the computer you are reading this with is probably mostly made; if not completely made in the PRC...and it is working well enough.

[iiipopes]

DP,

Would you say that a "bad" beer is better than a "good" Yamaha?



bloke "see slogan below"

I don't know about DP, but I definitely agree with that statement!

[LoyalTubist]

First of all, Yamaha is a Japanese company. Any time a foreign company begins operations something is lost.

I can buy the following items in Vietnam:
-Colgate toothpaste (made in Vietnam)
-Safeguard soap (made in China)
-Quaker Oats (made in Singapore)
-Kellogg's Corn Flakes (made in Thailand)
-Coast soap (made in U.S.A.)

Which one of these items do you think is the best seller? First, you know that Vietnamese don't usually like cereal (hot or cold), so that leaves out the corn flakes and the oatmeal.

The most popular product on this list is Coast soap. People like the smell and how long it lasts. They tried to make it here but people quit buying it. It was actually more expedient for the Dial Corporation to close up one soap factory here and import the soap from the United States. It's probably the only example I know of (this side of Hawaii) that the American product is preferred over an Asian product (or European product--we get Fa soap here, too.)

I understand why Yamaha is doing what they are doing. Perhaps this will be a green light for another manufacturer to begin a new tradition in Grand Rapids. (Neo-York?)

[The Big Ben]

Yeah! Beer! With pretty young girls! Pretty young girls with boobs!

Note that the photo came from "beercations.com"

Jeff "Joe Bob sez 'check it out'" Benedict

[LoyalTubist]

OK... I'll join in...

A pretty woman is more than that...

[MartyNeilan]

[andrew the tuba player]

...i'm not gonna say anything to that...

[LoyalTubist]

You just did!

[andrew the tuba player]

DANG! ya got me!

[TubaRay]

I just scanned through all the pictures in this thread. I saw the gross ones(I wish I hadn't), but I don't remember seeing any beer pictures. Can someone help me out here?