"The Olds" Trombone Question

[Gongadin]

I have a chance to buy a large bore tenor trombone with an F attachment from a local music shop. I have the horn on loan until I decide. The horn's made by F.E. Olds & Son, Fullerton California, is silver, and the serial number suggests it was made in the late 'fifties.
I think it would be a fun instrument to double on.
The reason for my query is I've tried to research what level of instrument this is, but I can't find where in the Olds pecking order "The Olds" ranks. I've seen a ranking-order list that includes "Standard", "Military", "Special", "Studio", "Super", "Recording", "Opera" et al, but no ranking for "The Olds" designation.
Is this an Intermediate horn? A Pro horn?
Any knowledgable comments will be appreciated.
Yes, I'll post this at the Trombone Forum too.

[Gongadin]

If it has a good slide, an interesting appearance, good playing characteristics, and a price @ or < $100, how can you really go wrong?

Yup, at $100 or less you couldn't go wrong. The price of this particular instrument is $300 Canadian, which is about $295 US at the moment. It does qualify for all of your other qualifying criteria, though!

[Evil Ronnie]

Is it a .547? It could be a "bass" if so, though honestly I don't when they "changed" it.

.547 would a large bore tenor.

[Gongadin]

The instrument sports a 9" bell, and on the F rotor it says "S35".

[Evil Ronnie]

Here we go again...

It's all semantics (doesn't "Mr. Bass Trombone" play on a .547 slide now?).

I don't know. I've never read or heard anything about that. I've heard that he is pretty much retired, but still plays on a Kanstul single valve bass modeled after an old Conn or Minnick/Conn hybrid.

Jay Friedman plays on a Bach 50 lightweight slide with his Greenhoe Bach 42 (.547 bore) tenor trombone. Does one musician using a bass slide on a tenor equate to a Bach 50 being a tenor trombone? No. Bach 50 is a bass (.562) and Bach 42 (.547 bore) is a large bore tenor.

So, even if Mr. Roberts does use a tenor slide on a bass bell, how in the world does that make a .547 horn a bass bone Bob?

Semantics???

(I will admit that some orchestral bass trombonists will downsize as small as a .547 tenor to play third on works such as Mozart's Requiem Mass, but a .547 ain't even close to being a bass.)

[Kenton]

I don't know that I have them all recorded, or even recorded accurately, but this is my Olds Trombone Model list:

http://www.horn-u-copia.net/olds-trombone.html

Any additions or corrections would be appreciated.

Kenton "who can easily make slips on trombones" Scott

[tubamirum]

This discussion misses one point, that is, a bass tb part can be played on a tenor (>500-.547), but it doesn't sound like a bass (.562). The timbre is the guide.

[Evil Ronnie]

[quote="Bob1062
Scroll through here, and see what was considered a bass trombone and in what ERA
quote]

Bob,

Tubahed is looking to but a horn for doubling, right? In today's world, right. Not for the Sousa Band or for an American orchestra of 1930.

Heck, the King 5b, a .547, was at one time listed in the King Catalogue as a bass. Years later, the Cleveland Orchestra tenors used 5b's with 9" bells made right in Cleveland, Ohio, under Szell.

But by today's standards, a .547 is a large tenor. Yes, some people might choose to use such an axe as a small bass, but it's a tenor.

That's all I'm saying. I don't have a problem with you, but a .547 ain't a bass. That's all I'm saying. Enough with the persecution complex.

[tubamirum]

The timbre is the point, if it sounds like a bass, who cares what the bore is?

[Evil Ronnie]

[quote="Bob1062"
Odd then, how half of your posts have revolved trying to bring me down.
.[/quote]

Delusions of grandeur. No one is out to get you. .547's were considered to be basses fifty years ago by some manufacturers, Today they aren't.

[ken k]

Basses in the 40s and 50s were smaller. think of the King 5-Bs. they were considered bass bones in the big bands of the 50's. Bach 45s are the same way. Some people still like to use them on lighter classical stuff like Mozart, Mendelssohn and Berlioz, etc.

Back to the topic of the thread. I have always liked the olds bones I have played. Especially the Specials and Recording horns. Great jazz horns. the bells seem to be a bit heavier than Kings for example, and you can really get a great cutting bite out of them. A wman donated her husbands trombones to our school after he passed away and one of them was an olds special, well that horn is my demonstaration horn and i use it on rock band and big band gigs all the time.

Even their Ambassadors, which were considered student horns played great. They used a heavier brass and they just have a great sound. It all depends how fancy you wanted them to look. The Specials were very pretty with the Nickel and red brass bells. But i don't know that they really played that much beter than the Ambassadors.

Fullerton horns are more sought after I believe than the Los Angeles horns. Zig Kanstul was the designer also I believe.

Now your horn on the other hand sounds like a larger horn, so i cannot comment on that particualr horn. My friend has an Olds from the 70's with a large red brass bell (probably around 9") and F-attachment. The bore of the horn though is more on the small or medium size and it sort of reminds me of a 3-B with the F attachment, which was a very popular horn at that time. I played a 3B HS at the time (I did not play tuba til college) and most of the kids in our section had 3Bs. Getting off topic again, i will say they were great horns and I still like them for band work better than larger trombones, in order to keep the trombone sound distinct from the Euphonium.

Sorry i did not directly address your question, but just felt I could give a little info about Olds trombones in general.

Please let us know what the trombone geeks tell you!

ken k

[Gongadin]

First of all, since bloke said that I couldn't go wrong at a price of $100 or less, I'd like to offer to buy his Olds that he has "somewhere" for $100. I'll even pay shipping! Thanks, Bloke!

Second, geez, I'm sorry for stirring up the feud between Bob and Evil R. Can't you boys jest shake hands and be bygones?

Thirdly, the trombone geeks have decided that this is in fact an older bass, as mentioned in this post, and that it is most likely a short-lived model, perhaps attached to some endorser of the time. The model "S35" (engraved on the rotor) isn't in any catalogue that the experts have a copy of. The bell is engraved "The Olds", a designation they stopped using in the 'forties, but the "Fullerton, California" address engraved on the bell dates it to after '54. The serial number suggests late '50s. Numbers match on both slide and bell sections. The administrator of "House Of Olds" suggests that this is a short-lived oddball "Super" model of bass trombone. A Pro horn of its time. Fine with me! It sounds sonorous and has a lot of potential to my ears, anyways, even with my limited trombone experience, and really, that's all that really matters.
Whatever's going to egg me on to practice is the horn for me.