I am selling a tuba and have recieved two emails from a prospective purchaser. Can you help me figure this guy out ?
(*redacted to protect the innocent*)
prospective purchaser wrote:Hello. My name is (*****). I am currently looking for a tuba, as I am a senior in high school and I still rent from the school. My private lessons teacher, (********), pointed out your ad on bassclefbrass and it sounded like a good tuba. I was hoping we could start negotiations at $2000, (***) and I both thought it sounded fair. Thanks, and I hope to hear from you soon!
I wrote:Hello (***),
Thank you for your email. Where do you live, and would you be able to drive to Grove City, PA to pick up the horn ?
George
prospective purchaser wrote:I live in (****500 miles away****). It's possible, but not really ideal. I have heard that most tuba deals involve negotiating shipping the horn to the buyer, then getting at least a week or two to try it out. If I don't like it, I pay shipping to send it back and we move on. What do you think?
(***)
I wrote:(***),
Despite the fact that I am confident that you would love this instrument, I can not sell it on your terms. But in addition to that, I am not comfortable packing a tuba without a hard case for shipping. No deal, but thanks for inquiring.
George
All I could think was that I am not a music store, and am not in the business of selling used horns. How can I possibly ship the horn without a final sales agreement?
Comments?
George
Last edited by geomiklas on Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
You did exactly the right thing. Even the stores make you put up a deposit or give them your credit card number in case something untowards happens. The guy was unabashed with what he wanted, wasn't he!
Seems kosher to me. He inquired, you didn't like his terms, you said no deal. Move on. If he is still really interested, he'll make the trip for a play test. Not easy, I know, but if the cost of the horn +cost of the trip < cost of different horn, it's worth it.
It doesn't sound like he was trying to scam you, but still, as a private seller, and not a store, the risks involved with shipping an item as "delicate" as a tuba are very high. Even higher if it hasn't been paid for. You wouldn't be selling it if you could afford to take a loss like that.
How about meeting halfway? Each party drives 200-300 miles? I drove 6 hours one-way to deliver the last horn I sold. Granted, it was a done deal and the money was already in my PayPal account...
A CC Piggy is enough of a known quantity to not have to ship it out on "trial". Hopefully the kid will consult with the teacher. I would just keep counteroffering and keep the dialogue going. Don't say "no", just say "how about this instead". "No" closes doors, especially when dealing with young 'uns.
Eric "not a natural saleman, but has been through the School of Hard Knocks, uh several times, and not done yet" L.
I would never send a horn to someone without the money first. I know of no store that would do that, either.
I have given buyers the option of returning the horn after a week, at his expense; at which time, after I have received the horn, I would refund the purchase price, but not the initial shipping cost.
Unfortunately one horn I received back was damaged, learned that the hard way.
Shippng costs are all on the buyer not the seller. That is just they way it works. If you have ever bought anything from a catalog or an online service, shipping is paid by the buyer, unless there is a special promotion going on.
ken k
B&H imperial E flat tuba
Mirafone 187 BBb
1919 Pan American BBb Helicon
1924 Buescher BBb tuba (Dr. Suessaphone)
2009 Mazda Miata
1996 Honda Pacific Coast PC800
Anybody who tries to negotiate your price with you is a fool.
Your asking price is already extremely good/fair.
When I've sold horns, this is the way I work.
Post an extremely detailed ad on bassclefbrass.com and in the for sale section of Tubenet. Be as detailed as possible, show lots of pictures, be totally honest, set a truly fair and reasonable price, and describe what terms you are interested in.
If I am going to ship something, I expect to be sent money first. It must be a cashier's check. This is the only way unless I know the person or a close friend vouches for the prospective buyer. I then deposit the check.
I'll then ship the tuba. The buyer can then try it out for whatever period they've negotiated, but the maximum amount of time I'm interested in is two weeks, preferably only one. (If it's more than that, they need to be paying rent.) This needs to be negotiated and agreed upon and not deviated from. When I was very young, a guy was interested in, paid for and picked up a tuba I had for sale, then MONTHS later decided he wanted his money back. I (stupidly) gave it back.
If the person decides they do not want the instrument within the agreed upon eval period, they send or bring it back and provided that no repairs are required, I refund their money via a cashiers check sent via FedEx. Other than the time I was a very stupid young guy, this has never actually happened because nobody has wanted their money back.
I hate shipping horns. I may prefer not to ship a particular instrument depending on what I feel the risk is of it getting damaged. I'm not interested in my asset being damaged and being stuck with the repair bill. I always prefer pick up. If I must ship it, I take it to a local PakMail where I do most of my post office type stuff. I pay them to pack and ship the instrument. They carry their own insurance in addition to whatever the carrier does. I've received prompt repayment for the repairs to the one instrument that was damaged when shipped this way and the shipping costs were refunded. There was no fuss.
Honestly, I also prefer to not do eval periods. In a couple of hours, I'm pretty sure if I like or do not like what I'm playing. I'm a rank amateur, but I am certain there are lots of pros that can make that call quickly too.
I set what I think is a fair and reasonable price for my horn. I do not negotiate beyond that.
It's a tuba. Do not expect it to sell quickly.
Tuba players more often than not seem to be good folks, but tuba players are people. There are nice folks and there are not so nice folks....
Last edited by cjk on Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.
You guys are great! Thanks iiipopes, Greg, Bob1062, TMurphy, and WakinAZ for the replies.
TMurphy: I didn't think so much that it was a scam, but just weird that the kid would try to negotiate without seeing the horn. I negotiated the price of my Mirafone, but I waited until I was holding the horn in my lap before I breathed the words "$4000 huh, do you think you can do better if I take it today?" At least I got my gas money that way.
WakinAZ: I'm thinking like you that the horn is well known. Also, I would be willing to drive as long as I could leave on Friday night, and be back home on Saturday night, and with expense money up front. I understand the point you made on saying "no". But like I said above, I think the right time to chisel the price is when the green is on the table and the wrong time is "sight unseen".
Bob1062: I've built a cardboard crate (with 1x2 framed ends) to ship a boat motor via UPS. I'm just afraid that I wouldn't isolate the tuba from the crate well enough and get a messed up bell or valve levers.
geomiklas wrote:
I think the right time to chisel the price is when the green is on the table and the wrong time is "sight unseen".
It's a conversation that starts with the initial contact and doesn't end until a price is agreed on. You can't blame a buyer for starting low, because we all know what happens if you start high.
Good luck - if I was in the market for a smaller CC, I'd be all over this.
As much as I hate shipping a tuba, I'll ship if the potential buyer agrees to pay shipping both ways if he/she does not end up buying it. I might pay some of the shipping cost to ship the tuba to the potential buyer, as an incentive for the potential buyer to buy it.
Before that happens, of course, I'd like reasonable assurance. If the buyer's teacher is well-recognized in the tuba/music community, or if such a person, as third party, is willing to get involved, I will ship it. Otherwise, I do need money in my pocket before doing anything at all. That all depends on how desperate I am, of course, I may even take the initiate of finding someone credible in the potential buyer's area for him/her to get in touch with, to see if something can be worked out.
Assuming that this is a decent tuba, it is NOT your responsibility to figure out why this person may not want the horn. I'd be more worried about the way it plays if you acceded to his demands...
Instead of talking to your plants, if you yelled at them would they still grow, but only to be troubled and insecure?
I agree with WakinAZ. If the other party is willing to spend 2-3K on a horn, it doesn't seem like it would be a big deal to at least drive half way and try out the horn.
bloke wrote:...She had me send it - WHICH IMPLIED THAT SHE ACCEPTED MY TERMS - and THEN (once she had my instrument in her possession) tried to negotiate the price down...
Bloke, that is low class, and certainly what I don't want to be involved in.
windshieldbug wrote:Assuming that this is a decent tuba, it is NOT your responsibility to figure out why this person may not want the horn. I'd be more worried about the way it plays if you acceded to his demands...
Exactly. It is quite sonorous, and a very capable horn for a variety of playing situations.
I recommend shipping (on credit) only to regular customers or to new customers with established reputations, confirmable through personal or business references, a credit check, or employment histories. If someone cannot get even a secured credit card to establish a Paypal account, feggedaboudit.
Most businesses would not even sell a titled motor vehicle, or make repairs to a titled residence, without paperwork giving liens on the financed property. Musical instruments are personal property, but not protected by titles, and almost impossible to obtain an enforceable lien on. A seller would need a judicial order (after filing a legal action and obtaining a first judgment), followed by the sheriff seizing the property pursuant to a second enforcement proceeding. And nothing prevents someone from reselling the financed personal property to a good-faith buyer, who would never have to return it to you, the seller-financer.
BTW, the rental of band instruments, furniture, computers, home electronics, and other personal property is actually a way of financing to consumers who are credit risks, because the owner never transfers title to the consumer.
Dean E
[S]tudy politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy . . . in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry [and] music. . . . John Adams (1780)
It seems that there are a few issues at work here. On one hand it is reasonable for the purchaser to expect a virtual guarantee that they WILL get some satisfaction for sending their green tender abroad into the hinterlands. How many times have there been SERIOUS scams of all sorts as regular news?
Then the issue of damage in transit. If you ship it and they DON'T LIKE IT [sight UNseen, etc. ...], they're probably not even going to be all that careful to make sure you get the horn back unscathed. It's one thing for Sears or Walmart to have a "scratch & dent department" -- you the tuba player don't need to take over that role.
Unless extreme circumstances exist, the purchaser is making a MAJOR investment that they should verify any assumptions by even getting together with Mom & Dad, taking a ride in the wagon over to your place -- or half-way? -- to make sure they're going to be happy with the horn in the first place. If they're not, then you'd have the hassle of the returns, shipping, etc. They're already making something of an investment by taking the time and expense for private lessons before they ever contacted you. The horn is just an extension of that.
You the seller, on the other hand need to be assured that you're going to get paid in full, the check won't bounce, no hanky-panky exists, etc., when you ship out/ deliver the merchandise. My inclination would be to settle for nothing less than payment in full on this. That's just the way of the world. Why should you be any different? I've even sold computers on totally private sales where I don't EVEN THINK of shipping the item till the $$$ clears. Tubas should somehow be exceptional?
They want a trial period and I understand their jitters on the issue. How about a general solution such as this. Don't know what if any relationship you might have with your attorney. But they could act like an escrow agent in the deal. Chen, Dean E & cjk alluded to this above. On the one hand this is YOUR attorney. And, contrary to popular rumor, they're not ALL sharks with blood dripping from their jaws and might be very good at this. On the one hand they are your representative, but would hold the funds [and as such, really have a fiduciary with the PURCHASER during the holding period] till a 2-week trial period expired. Unless they heard of dissatisfaction by the purchaser, they would, at the end of that period, automatically release the funds to you. Title would remain in YOUR hands until funds clear. If they charge (you) for this, pass that cost on to the purchaser. The purchaser would have to agree to all this ahead of time. It's much like a real estate or other BIG ticket item transaction. Such a person to ask about this type of involvement probably should be an attorney or similar professional. They'd understand the transaction, and the penalties for not abiding with what you say you will do -- and, any slipperiness on their part would be tantamount to grand theft, for which they could be disbarred or even serve jail time. But I wouldn't approach this situation without a deposit and perhaps any shipping costs/ attorney fees [if you wanted to go that route] right up front. Then the balance would be held by the escrow agent till apparent satisfaction occurred.
I've had good luck, both as a seller and a buyer, with an online escrow agent, http://www.escrow.com. There are probably others that provide this service, but this is the one I happened to use. It's probably cheaper than an attorney. The money is held by the escrow agent until both buyer and seller are satisified with the deal, or the merchandise is returned, unharmed. Just make sure every shipment has insurance on it.
I am amazed that more people don't use contracts (written, that is) in the sale/purchase of instruments, given that we're dealing with thousands of dollars.
(I am a licensed real estate agent in IL and use contracts all the time; however, an attorney I am not.)
In any market, be it fruit, houses or tubas, the price is set by the seller, and the value is determined by the buyer. You can ask whatever you want, and you can determine what's too much.
In the Chicago real estate market, we're more stable than the east coast, west coast and other formerly "hot spots," such as Florida and Nevada. But people hear all the garbage in the media about how the housing market is "crashing" (historically speaking, it's not true, but that's another topic). So we are experiencing buyers who think they're going to get a deal no matter what the list price of a home is. Stupidly so, quite frankly, such that market research and current statistics are ignored.
But this sounds a little like what many posters here experience; no matter how reasonable the asking price, someone comes along thinking you're in the mood to give it away to the first nut that falls from the tree.
As a seller, you have every right to ask for whatever you feel is reasonable. After all, it's your property and remains so until payment in full is rendered. You have the right to take reasonable steps to protect your property, including its current value, vis-a-vis condition. This can, and should, include measures to protect the value should someone trying the instrument cause it damage. You have the right to secure the property against loss of value, even if the potential buyer balks. I would recommend language such as:
"Buyer agrees to render payment in full of the listed purchase price to initiate the trial period. Once funds are secured, the Buyer will have 10 (ten) business days to try the instrument [having already defined the instrument by maker, model and ser. #, as well as photo documentation of condition at time agreement commences]. The instrument must be returned within the time specified or Buyer forfeits 10% of the full purchase price without further claim and agrees to take no measure to seek remedy or reimbursement. If the Instrument is returned in a timely fashion and in the same condition delivered, 100% of the full purchase price will be returned to Buyer. Should the Instrument be returned in damaged condition, Seller will seek one estimate for the cost of repairing said damage, and will then withold that amount plus 10 (ten) per cent of the full purchase price. Buyer will make no claim against Seller if damage has been done, and agrees to make no claim against Seller. Any claims of damage done in shipping will be between Buyer and Shipper only to settle."
Or something like that.
You can set whatever terms you like. It's up to a Buyer to decide if they want badly enough to try it, whether through a local pick-up or shipping. But I always advocate taking reasonable measures to secure your property against damage.
Seller sets the price, buyer determines the value. You can ask whatever you want, and buyers may or may not go for it. If they don't, you then have to decide which items from your list of preferred terms you're willing to sacrifice, be it ancillary terms or price.
Some additional excellent suggestions by Tom B & Mitch on this issue. One thing you should DEFINITELY do is to get it all in writing with a signed AND acknowledged WRITTEN contract with many of the suggestions that Mitch has spoken about -- perhaps more. But you need an admissible written document in hand before proceeding -- even if you close it with lipstick on the back of a coffee cup -- be sure to get it in writing before proceeding. Worst case scenario, there would be a problem that would wind the whole thing up in a courtroom and now YOU the seller need proof that would render the judge's determination in your favor.
There is a statute of frauds issue without proper written docs in hand. Oral agreements are not only not binding, if he has NOT signed it, he could also claim it was hearsay and just NOT part of the deal. If you don't spell out all issues to be agreed upon, they right away fall into that hearsay category. NOT where you want to be.
And be concise yet thorough in anything written and agreed to. Vagaries usually go against the drafter of any contract so if you want the buyer to do something of ANY kind, be sure he agrees in advance in writing.
Also get some pictures BEFORE the instrument is sent. Keep these AT LEAST one year after the buyer receives the product. If any damage occurs, he may try to claim that you shipped damaged goods and to perhaps seek restitution from you. Keep proof on your side.
By all means encourage the deal and move it forward -- just be sure you're amply protected against present and future eventualities and potentialities. It's suicidal to be naive about this or anything else in the BIG DEAL category. We all know tubas are a BIG DEAL -- they also need to be a GOOD deal too.
