Neptune...

[tubacody]

I have a few easy questions guys,

1) VMI Neptune - pro's and con's . Worth getting unlaquered? Worth RE-laqering the valve section silver afterwards?

2) Yamayork 'monica' - Price? How easy is it to contact Yamaha about getting to even SEE this baby?

I will appreciate the probably varied responses.

Cody

[Alex C]

I have a few easy questions guys,

1) VMI Neptune - pro's and con's . Worth getting unlaquered? Worth RE-laqering the valve section silver afterwards?

No. You don't RE-lacquer anything silver. You would gain nothing in silver plating a valve section.
IMPO, a Neptune can be a real value in a 6/4 tuba. Do you need a 6/4 tuba? Most tuba players don't.

2) Yamayork 'monica' - Price? How easy is it to contact Yamaha about getting to even SEE this baby?

Your teacher would have to have some gravitas to get a real response from Yamaha. The most likely scenario is that if you contact Yamaha to see this baby, you probably won't get a reply. You either find out where it is being demo'ed or ask your teacher, otherwise you won't see it much less play it.

[Rick Denney]

I have a few easy questions guys,

1) VMI Neptune - pro's and con's . Worth getting unlaquered? Worth RE-laqering the valve section silver afterwards?

2) Yamayork 'monica' - Price? How easy is it to contact Yamaha about getting to even SEE this baby?

I will appreciate the probably varied responses.

Cody

The Neptune, especially the rotary model, has about as good a reputation as most big tubas, especially for the price. The rotary version seems to have a better reputation than the piston version in the intonation department. Lacquering makes no difference except in appearance. You don't lacquer with silver--you plate with silver. You lacquer with lacquer. Most pros seem to want silver plated instruments because the finish looks better more durably than with lacquer. Don't expect any acoustic effect of plating or lacquering a tuba.

The Yamayork YCB 826 is available through your Yamaha dealer, though none stock them and you'll have to contact Yamaha USA to make arrangements to try one. Expect the price to be in the $30,000 range, plus or minus five grand.

Personally, I'd rather have the Baer-model Meinl-Weston than either if I had that much money to spend and wanted a grand orchestral tuba.

Even more to the point, however, broad questions like these suggest to me that such a specialized instrument might not be a recommended next instrument. Most people who are ready for a grand orchestral tuba are either amateurs who need no justification or pros who already know where to find them and how to evaluate them.

Rick "wondering, again, why kids are considering Yorkophones" Denney

[joshwirt]

You can buy a handmade 6/4 Baer CC from a couple of places right now.....for a lot less that the Yamaha....

I haven't played the Yamaha, but the 6450/2 is FANTASTIC horn! Well, at least the one I played on....and it had an unfair advantage

-Josh

[lgb&dtuba]

Personally I think we need to start discussing the sonic differences between neoprene, cork, ...

Cork gives a more organic sound and is environmentally friendly compared to neoprene.

[Rick Denney]

Personally I think we need to start discussing the sonic differences between . . . red and green felt.

I have always felt that green felts impart a verdant freshness to one's tone, while red ones seem to generate more of a passionate urgency. You may feel free to quote me on this.

Wade, you are an idiot. As ANYONE knows, red felt tends to push the impedance curve upward supporting the tendency to drive the 5th and 6th harmonics to a slightly higher pitch, resulting in a brighter tone. And green felt (or, worst of all, cork) suppresses the third harmonic pitch. You never, ever want to play a BAT with green felt--it's the worst of both worlds. Anybody with even a 5-second glance at a spectrum analysis would KNOW that.

Sheesh. You musicians just don't know your science.

Rick "who obviously specified black felt for the Holton" Denney

[tubaman5150]

You dang kids and your BAT questions...
In my day, you had to blast through the tuba part to "Fountains of Rome" on an Eb alto peckhorn 13,013 times, before you were even allowed to ask about a 6/4 tuba. Even then, one had to spend 13 years in the wilderness, practicing lip slurs on a tree bark mouthpiece, until you passed out. After that, you were then worthy to have vision of the York deity appear and see if you had paid your dues.
Then, and only then, would you be fit to wield a BAT.

[iiipopes]

I am not worthy.

[tubaman5150]

I'm sticking with my Miraphone "peckhorns"

[Wyvern]

I can understand the love of BATs and I am no kid. Even after two years of playing my Neptune, I still smile and think WOW! every time I play it

However, playing a BAT definitely requires more skill and control than a smaller tuba - so like driving a powerful sports car, they are not for the inexperienced!

Jonathan "who thinks playing a BAT can be rather addictive*"
*It's that depth of sound which no smaller tuba can provide!

[Rick Denney]

I can understand the love of BATs and I am no kid.

No doubt. But it is still a specialized instrument. Would you use it in quintet? No. In a small orchestra? Only occasionally. In a polka band? Only with two native bearers.

BATs are for grownups who have matured past the need to have a bigger one.

Right.

Rick "who has given up on maturity" Denney

[Wyvern]

Would you use it in quintet?

Only a tuba quintet - I did this evening!

In a small orchestra?

Only where best for the music

In a polka band?

Never!

BATs are for grownups who have matured past the need to have a bigger one.

Right.

I will go with that one!

Jonathan "who enjoys playing any of his tubas"

[MartyNeilan]

...or (depending on the BAT) running a 26' bob-truck through a timed obstacle course.

A Bob-truck? How are the false tones?

[Rex Roeges]

I see lots of folks saying you don't use a Neptune in a quintet, but I've tried both my Neptune and my B&H Imperial Eb (both excellent instruments!) in my quintet, but the quintet preferred the Neptune, so that's what I use!

I guess that it may be very player specific. After playing this Neptune for 8 years now, I'm thinking that, inspite of what this august jury says, it's not a bad "all around" horn at all, at least for me. I'm not suggesting that an undergraduate performance major make it his or her primary axe, but as a guy who's been playing for >40 years, I'll probably use it for everything unless I link up with a brass band (then, out comes the Imperial!).


Best regards,
Rex

[Wyvern]

Rex,
Good to hear from another satisfied Neptune owner!

Out of interest, what mouthpiece do you use on your Neptune in quintet?

I tend to think mouthpiece choice is a big factor in producing an appropriate sound.

Best Regards,

Jonathan

[iiipopes]

My BAT craving is satisfied with a souzy. And believe me, it is very satisfying!

[Rick Denney]

I see lots of folks saying you don't use a Neptune in a quintet, but I've tried both my Neptune and my B&H Imperial Eb (both excellent instruments!) in my quintet, but the quintet preferred the Neptune, so that's what I use!

I suppose it depends on the quintet. When I have tried my Holton, which has an excellent pianissimo and good clarity for a big tuba, the sound has been too broad to support the clarity of the quintet. It sounds like a tuba being accompanied by a brass quartet. I prefer something with more clarity, especially for Renaissance and Baroque music. But we are not powerhouses.

But Besson/B&H Eb tubas are perhaps a bit round for my quintet sound concept, too.

Rick "who prefers the penetrating F sound for quintet" Denney

[Rex Roeges]

Jonathan-
I generally alternate between a PT-9 (I don't believe it's made anymore, I think that it is replaced by the PT-64) and a Mt. Vernon Bach 18 for most playing, including quintet. If a sharper sound is needed, I use a Conn Helleberg 7b, if I want to shake the walls I use a PT-88. Intonation changes a lot with the mouthpiece, adjustments are needed.

Actually, the mouthpiece I like best is a Miraphone Rose model Solo, but I bought it on that auction site, and when it arrived, it was so beat up that I can't play it for long. One of these days I'll have to get it refurbished.

Rick-
The quintet that I play with is just a church group and we are, collectively, not a powerhouse. I don't know why the Neptune works, it just seems to. Perhaps is it the large room that we play in (a church). Oddly enough, the trumpets, horn and I do well, it's always the trombone that seems to have to push to be heard in the back.

Best regards,
Rex

[tubacody]

Damn, Rick... that first post was a little derogatory.

First off, the two questions were completely unrelated. Therefore, your suggestion about specialized horns yadda yadda yadda is a bit unfounded. I am not trying to decide between the two horns. I knew the Yamaha was probably about a billion dollars and if you had the money to afford one, you are most likely a Branson or Gates or Sultan of a larger country.

Secondly, I apologize for the slip up. I did indeed mean silver PLATING......should have pre-read the post before sending it off. I think the plating or lacquering has a bit to do with acoustics overall.... Aren't silver horns a bit brighter than their lacquered counterparts?

And finally, I may not be a 'resident genius', but I don't believe too many folks have won symphony jobs on 3/4 horns... a little more on 4/4's.... perhaps a few more even on 5/4's....? Would it not seem wise to become familiar with a large audition horn WELL before you actually arrive to said audition? My theory is....yes....yes it is.

Thanks for the neptune advice guys. And BTW, F tubas in a quintet always sounded a bit weak to me. But I am a Chuck Daellenbach kinda guy.

[Rick Denney]

Damn, Rick... that first post was a little derogatory.

I wasn't attacking you--I don't know you and your post didn't come with credentials, heh, heh. No offense intended. In the absence of knowing you, it was that class of question I was answering. Take what you need and leave the rest.

First off, the two questions were completely unrelated. Therefore, your suggestion about specialized horns yadda yadda yadda is a bit unfounded. I am not trying to decide between the two horns. I knew the Yamaha was probably about a billion dollars and if you had the money to afford one, you are most likely a Branson or Gates or Sultan of a larger country.

If the questions were unrelated, you might consider putting them in separate posts next time. They sure as heck seemed related. For example, "What do you guys think of a B&S F tuba? What about a Yamaha 621 F?" would be universally interpreted as both are under consideration for the same application.

Secondly, I apologize for the slip up. I did indeed mean silver PLATING......should have pre-read the post before sending it off.

We all hit the SEND key before rereading--me most of all. And we endure the results, heh, heh. Don't take it personally. It will be my turn next week, and then you can laugh. But even accidental statements might reflect what a lurker believes. For example...

I think the plating or lacquering has a bit to do with acoustics overall.... Aren't silver horns a bit brighter than their lacquered counterparts?

I specifically disagree that silver plating has any effect whatsoever on the acoustics of the instrument. Lacquer may at some really subtle level, but even if it does it would defy a general characterization such as "brighter" (or "better"). Unless, of course, you mean "brighter" in a photograph.

And finally, I may not be a 'resident genius', but I don't believe too many folks have won symphony jobs on 3/4 horns... a little more on 4/4's.... perhaps a few more even on 5/4's....? Would it not seem wise to become familiar with a large audition horn WELL before you actually arrive to said audition? My theory is....yes....yes it is.

Firstly, I did not assign myself that title. I suspect there was a bit of irony in that assignment. This may not be apparent to someone new to Tubenet, as your post total would suggest.

Do a survey on who won symphony gigs with a full 6/4 instrument, and report back. I think you'll find the big tubas that have torn up the audition circuit have been more in the Gronitz PCK/B&S PT-6 size category--a bit smaller than either the Neptune or the YCB-826. Most of the true 6/4 Yorkophones get sold to symphony pros after already holding their gig. But if that's your measure, I don't recall when either the Neptune or the Yamaha tuba was ever the instrument used in a successful full-time pro symphony audition.

That doesn't mean a big tuba isn't appropriate in any specific circumstance, of course. If I didn't believe that I would not play a Holton. But look at the gigs out there. Only the orchestra gigs have much application for a "grand orchestral" tuba, and those gigs are pretty rare. You have to eat even on the audition circuit. Remember that most military musicians (who FAR outnumber full-time orchestra pro tuba players) earn their keep on a sousaphone. I doubt that many of them owned one before winning their jobs.

Again, I'm answering the question, not the person. You may be ready for a big tuba. But the way you phrased your question suggested otherwise, and again may have reflected similar views from someone who is not ready.

Thanks for the neptune advice guys. And BTW, F tubas in a quintet always sounded a bit weak to me. But I am a Chuck Daellenbach kinda guy.

Thank you for your opinion. Recognize that it says more about you than you might realize, as my opinions do about me.

Rick "noting that Daellenbach plays an F-tuba-sized C tuba" Denney