3 valve versus 4

[MartyNeilan]

Look for posts made by BOB1062 concerning "False Tones"

[Donn]

As a relative novice brought up on EEb 4 valve I have acquired a 3 valve Emperor Bass. Is it really a no go attempting anything below "Bottom A natural"...I really miss the 4th valve here...are there any tricks of the trade I am missing?

Well, it depends on the particular tuba, and you'll have to decide whether it's useful or not, but your only hope is the false tones MartyNeilan alluded to.

The way I know it, the next note below that bottom A natural (Ab) is open. Proceed down the scale of unfocused, lifeless notes through E (2-3), until you arrive at the 1st partial Eb, open of course. For me, results are not fabulous, but it may benefit from some skill (that's why he invoked bob1062, a well known master false noter.)

There has been some discussion here in the past that left me with the impression some people use other valve combinations, like maybe they'd use 1 instead of open for Ab on an Eb tuba. That doesn't work for me.

[WakinAZ]

Since you seem to be completely unfamiliar with the concept, do a search on this site for "false tones" and also "privileged tones". I'm sure there will be an explanation of these notes that are outside the normal overtone series somewhere in the results.

Generally they either pop out on a particular horn or they do not. They usually do not sound as good as the regular notes on a tuba, unless of course you are Bob1062, who I believe plays nothing but false tones.

Eric

[Donn]

Don would you play Ab open two octives up?
THEY'RE JUST NOTES !! THEY SHOULD BE PLAYED LIKE ANOTHER NOTES!!
I KNOW "IT WORKS FOR ME" BUT IT'S NOT LOGICAL - QUIT DOING IT !
THEY SHOULD USE THE SAME FINGERINGS AS TWO OCTIVES ABOVE .
unfocused, lifeless notes ..... HA is this really good advice ?
I told you it brought the worst in me ! sorry Don!
i'M NOT ONLY PICKING ON YOU DON BUT EVERYONE WHO
PROMOTES THESE ILLOGICAL FINGERINGS.

Don't worry about me - as far as I know, you're too far away to do me any actual harm, so I have no worries about it.

The thing is, these notes defy logic in the first place, because their wavelength isn't a divisor of the tubing length. I sure would not play the Ab two octaves above with this fingering, I'd use the first valve. This makes my Eb tuba about 15 feet long, and that Ab is about 2.5 feet: 1/6 of the length, a nice even multiple to accommodate that note. This one, though, is about 10 feet, and logic doesn't really tell me that it's going to work in 15 feet of tubing (2/3) better than 13.5 (3/4) like I'm doing it. I can go and try to make it work, if you want, but if the tuba's telling me anything, it's saying 3/4.

[SplatterTone]

On my Holton eflat, the fingering for the note a fifth above the false tone gets the best results. So 2 for G, 12 for F. Which sort of makes some acoustic sense (maybe). Then we get into the pedal tones. If I botox my lips, the 32-foot C pedal can be gotten -- not loud, but it's there, and it's real.

[Donn]

On my Holton eflat, the fingering for the note a fifth above the false tone gets the best results. So 2 for G, 12 for F. Which sort of makes some acoustic sense (maybe). Then we get into the pedal tones. If I botox my lips, the 32-foot C pedal can be gotten -- not loud, but it's there, and it's real.

Do you mean, C on the space below the 5th ledger line below the staff, one octave below the 2nd line low C? 16 foot, I believe that is, the 2nd line is 8 foot. It's fair on my Pan American Eb Giant Bass. The Bb below it is faint, but then it's much weaker than C an octave up, too. If I'm right about the acoustics, any note lower than this (i.e., longer than 18 feet) on a 3 valve Eb tuba is going to be just you, not supported by the tuba.

[SplatterTone]

16 foot, I believe that is

32 foot -- The pedal tone of the 12 valve combo. Same note you get with 1234 valve combo on B-flat horn. It doesn't have much power, and the lips gotta be l-o-o-s-e; not much use in a musical sense. The pedal D ain't bad on the Holton considering it is just a "normal" sized e-flat; it's almost musically useful. By comparison, the 234 D and 1234 C on the 191 B-flat will stomp the Holton, jump up and down on it, and leave cleat marks.

For the record, I'm not a big fan of pushing the 3-valve e-flat below the 123 A. Got lower notes? Use a bigger horn.

[SplatterTone]

I got to thinking (ouch) ...
maybe it is 16-foot. I gotta find a pipe organ and check it out.

[Donn]

maybe it is 16-foot.

Adding to the confusion, the Bb one step below is called 32-foot Bb ... I think. A terminology based on octaves from C to C. 18 foot Bb, 32 foot Bb are the same pitch.

[Allen]

Some comments:

The C five ledger lines below the bass clef is, in organ terms, "16 foot C," and is about 32Hz. The sounding length of an open flue (like a whistle) pipe is about that length.

If you look at a plot of the open resonances os a brass instrument (generated by electronic test equipment), you will see nice resonances that correspond to what we brass players call partials. What we call the 2nd partial through the 8th or 10th partial look like good resonances. Above that, the resonances are less clearly defined, and higher yet don't exist at all.

Where is the 1st partial, what we like to call the pedal tone? There is no resonance there! The bottom resonance is at a higher pitch, usually about F on a C tuba, and corresponding positions on other-pitched tubas. That is what we call a false tone. The reason the false tone doesn't slot well or sound so resonant is because many of the higher partials do not line up with harmonics of that note and reinforce it.

The reason we can play pedal tones is because the 2nd and all higher partials line up with harmonics of the pedal pitch and reinforce your lip buzz. Note that since there is no resonance at the pedal note itself, there is just about no fundamental to the note -- it's almost all harmonics.

False tones are suitable for two musical uses. One use is because you don't have enough valves and want to hit those pitches anyway. On some big horns, these notes can work about as well as many-valved notes. [And on some little horns, one can attempt a bass trombone imitation.]

Another musical use is to make a note that is different from many-valved notes. A false tone has a lighter sound, and starts and stops more quickly than its alternative. In playing my 5-valve tuba, I like having a choice of how I play very low notes.

Cheers,
Allen

[iiipopes]

On a souzy, especially a Conn souzy, the "false" tones are very usable, and with a Conn Helleberg or similar funnel mouthpiece, or even a good deep bowl like a Kelly 18, which I use on a souzy, are downright tubesque and immenently usable. So if you have the upper loop of the 1st valve tubing converted into a pullable slide, as I have done, you only need 3 valves to get good usable chromatics all the way down to real pedal BBb.

[Rick Denney]

...The bottom resonance is at a higher pitch, usually about F on a C tuba, and corresponding positions on other-pitched tubas. That is what we call a false tone. The reason the false tone doesn't slot well or sound so resonant is because many of the higher partials do not line up with harmonics of that note and reinforce it.

The reason we can play pedal tones is because the 2nd and all higher partials line up with harmonics of the pedal pitch and reinforce your lip buzz. Note that since there is no resonance at the pedal note itself, there is just about no fundamental to the note -- it's almost all harmonics.

Fred Young said something similar a long time ago, but it was lost on his audience at the time. This is a great description and one that should be remembered. He said that the so-called false tone is the true fundamental, but I like your statement much better--it's the lowest resonant frequency of the bugle.

Your description points up another truth, too, and that is that the harmonics are not necessarily resonant with the pitch being (successfully) buzzed. There is nothing about bugle that insists on harmonics at any particular frequency, and the less cylindrical the bugle, the more this is so.

Rick "who likes this description" Denney

[sloan]

There is nothing about bugle that insists on harmonics at any particular frequency, and the less cylindrical the bugle, the more this is so.

Rick "who likes this description" Denney

I agree with the first statement - there is no particular reason (other than careful design) for resonances to line up on a brass instrument.

I'm not sure about the second part - as you vary the percent of the bugle that is cylindrical, the resonances move all over the place, in complicated patterns. There are *other* design choices you can make to move them around, as well. If you are lucky, at ONE point in the "percent cylindrical", it's generally possible to get reasonable alignment.

Moving either UP or DOWN on the percent cylindrical from this sweet spot will destroy the alignment.

At least, that's my handwaving model. Your milage may vary.

[iiipopes]

maybe it is 16-foot.

Adding to the confusion, the Bb one step below is called 32-foot Bb ... I think. A terminology based on octaves from C to C. 18 foot Bb, 32 foot Bb are the same pitch.

Indeed. 2nd ledger line below the bass clef concert pitch C is also called 8-foot C, as the open pipe that produces that pitch is roughly 8 feet long from the mouth to the top. The C below this, five ledger lines and a space below the bass clef, is the open pedal C on a CC tuba, and is also called 16-foot C, Because the organ pipe that produces this note is double the length, or roughly 16 feet long.

The open pedal note of a BBb tuba is, of course, one step below 16' C, so yes, since in pipe organ terminology dated from German organs several centuries ago, where 8-foot C is considered the lowest common pitch, pedal Bb on a BBb tuba is in the 32-foot octave as the nomenclature is defined in pipe organ jargon.

[iiipopes]

"Large 4/4-5/4 size old Conn model 14K, 36K, and 32K BBb sousaphones seem to be the absolute 'winners' over all tubas in the 'false tone' dept."

Absolutely.

[GC]

Almost any Conn 20J and a friend's Holton 345 were the best false-tone monsters I've ever encountered outside the old Conn big sousaphones.

[eupher61]

18 foot and 36 foot are Bb...16/32 is a C. I'm not really clear on what you're referring to specifically, but those are the lengths.

[iiipopes]

18 foot and 36 foot are Bb...16/32 is a C. I'm not really clear on what you're referring to specifically, but those are the lengths.

We are referring to comparing pipe organ nomenclature to tuba nomenclature.