It's probably me, but ... (or Amati vs. B&S GDR)

[KHHS]

This is my first posting here, after lurking many months, having learned much about tuba-playing and enjoying your wit and wisdom.

On tuba, I am a late beginner (> 40) after playing soprano saxophone for 2.5 decades. And I am an autodidact.

I have been playing on an old Amati 481-4 Bb-Tuba. It has a nice tone, but plays quite flat - just 440 Hz with the main slide all in. So there isn't much room left for fine tuning. A, Ab and D in the staff are still flat than, so i had to use alternate fingerings (A: 14, D: 12, Ab: ?).

But last week i had the opportunity to test and buy a B&S (GDR) 4-valve Bb Tuba - similar to the VMI 2103 with the vertical tuning slide. When i tested the instrument it seemed fine to me - it doesn't have the quirks of the Amati and responded very good and more evenly across the range.

And i knew that these instruments have a fabulous reputation here at tubenet.

Although I like the full "contrabass-sound" of the Amati a bit more, i bought the B&S to help me play in tune.

The valves and the slides were cleaned and oiled after i tested it, and then i bought it and got it home.

But now, i must say, I'm disappointed. I immediately noticed that the C in the staff and B nat beneath that are way to flat (about 20 cent). No way (for me) to "lip" them up. The C is fine with 4 instead of 1, but not the B nat. The open D in the staff is just fine as well as the A beneath that. Some other notes are also a bit off, but thats probably just because i am not used to the instrument.

Obviously i didn't notice that, when i tested the instrument. Maybe i was just too focused on the quirks of my Amati when testing the B&S.

Or could it be, that the cleaning had such effects (it was done by a professional)?

I tried different mpcs (Yamaha Jim Self, Bobo Symphonie, A&S 18) - the response is different but not the tuning.

What would you do? Different mpc? Different tuning (so far i get best results with slide 4 quite far out)? Or get it to another technician to see if it leaks? Is there another fingering for Bnat (2-4 doesn't sound good). How exact can i expect the tuning to be (lets say - within +/- 5 cent?)?

Your advice or comfort is appreciated. (And pardon my rusted in English.)

By the way - i was astonished to notice that the B&S is lighter than the Amati or at least the same, altough it's taller and i thought Amati were very light-weighted instruments.

[cjk]

Is the Ab in the staff or Eb just below flat?

If so, your first valve slide sounds like it's too long.

[KHHS]

No, Ab, Eb and others with 1 are ok, more or less.

[KHHS]

The bell flare of my B&S (Made in GDR) is 16-1/2". It is about 41" tall, just a few centimeters taller than the Amati 481.

So that is probably not the tall version?

And yes, open D (5th partial) is fine and B nat isn't.

[WakinAZ]

B natural in the staff can be fingered 1-2-3 also - Might be a little stuffy but worth a try. Can you reach your first valve slide to adjust? Didn't see if you said it was in all they way. You may have to settle for the 2-4 combo. C in the staff is a flat note on most BBb tubas, try 1-3 or 4 or push slide in for slow/exposed passages.

The two Miraphone rotary tubas I have owned liked the lower octave fingerings from C in the staff up to D in the staff.

Sounds like you're better off overall. Enjoy and give yourself time.

Eric

[corbasse]

From the description you give I believe I played exactly the same make of instrument when I started tuba a few years ago: 4 valves, GDR (B&S) made, vertical tuning slide, 16'' and a bit bell, 41'' tall.
Fine instrument, great sound, but the 5th partial and especially it's derivatives were horrendously low with normal fingerings. It seems it's the way the instruments are built. I got C and B more or less in tune with 4 and 24. Clean attacks were a problem though.

So no, it's not you, it's the horn

[KHHS]

Thank you for sharing your advice and experience. I had hoped the new (old) tuba would make things easier for me, since I had got enough to learn without "particularities".

But now I see that it's not too unusual for a tuba player to arrange with odd fingerings. (My budget does not allow to have a trigger installed.)

Is there actually any instrument out there that can be played with simple standard fingerings and without slide-pulling for best sound and intonation?

Corbasse, do you remember if the mouthpiece made any difference in your case?

[WakinAZ]

Is there actually any instrument out there that can be played with simple standard fingerings and without slide-pulling for best sound and intonation?

Miraphone 186 is as close as you can get, probably. There are compromises on any horn. Alternate fingerings are a pain, but you get used to them. I would usually revert to standard fingerings in fast technical passages.

[Rick Denney]

But now I see that it's not too unusual for a tuba player to arrange with odd fingerings. (My budget does not allow to have a trigger installed.)

Is there actually any instrument out there that can be played with simple standard fingerings and without slide-pulling for best sound and intonation?

The answer is: no. No tuba on the market has perfect intonation, and even those with a good reputation for same require some steering here and there. Most folks who play rotary tubas reach over the top bow and push the first valve slide in for the C and B on the staff. The usual position of that slide is a couple of inches out to make room for the adjustment. Even my Miraphone 186, which has about as good a reputation for intonation as any, requires that adjustment.

If that's the only intonation challenge on the instrument, then you don't really have an intonation problem.

European instruments are also set up a bit differently, because it's common European practice to use the third valve alone rather than the 1-2 combination. And then, of course, playing in tune often requires departing from an equal temperament. So, as with saxophone, you have to bring a good command of pitch to the tuba in order to consistently play in tune.

It takes me several months to really know where a tuba's intonation tendencies are, and I've change my slide setup sometimes months after getting an instrument. Of course, I'm slow, but my point is that you should give yourself some time to really get used to the instrument before allowing yourself to be disappointed. You have done MUCH better than most in acquiring a first tuba as an adult--I had to make my comeback on a Besson Stratford with three valves.

Rick "who thinks highly of the B&S Bb rotary tubas" Denney

[tubeast]

Have fun with your horn.
In response to your original post let me tell you what I experienced myself: In case you find yourself pushing tuning slides all the way in and still being WAAAY flat: don´t hesitate to have a pro technician saw off a part of your main tuning slide. Especially horizontal ones have lots of potential to do so.
It´s an inexpensive fix ( mine cost about 70 €) and makes life much easier. There´s no shame in pulling that slide out a bit afterwards. I had this done to my horn after 1.5 years of struggling. Now the horn is raised from 440 to 442 Hz and I asked myself why I fought for so long.

About this trigger for left-hand operation of your tuning slide, as Bloke suggested: you can just duct-tape a convenient (wooden?) rod with a nice little handle at the end to your slide and see if that works. Just make sure it is taped on really tight, so you´ll have a feeling of direct control.
You can always have it "professionalized" by a repairperson once you find out this is your way to go.

[gregsundt]

It takes me several months to really know where a tuba's intonation tendencies are...

Absolutely. I played an old 4/4 Rudy for a number of years. I first acquired it right before moving to Columbus to start my MM degree. I made the mistake of complaining to Bob LeBlanc at one of my first lessons about the intonation problems I was having. After a few (very few) minutes of experimentation, he made it clear that 1) the instrument was pretty much doing what I told it to do (I had transferred the adjustments I was making on my little Cerveny over to this horn), and 2) I would be well-advised to work out the problems over the next few months instead of complaining about them (which I did). It was a great lesson in brass intonation, and humility.

[Conn 2J CC]

In regards to the two good suggestions that Bloke and tubest have made, here are two pictures of the back side of a Conn 2J CC Tuba that was on eBay recently. It has a simple brass rod and brace post soldered to the main tuning slide so that the slide can be adjusted while playing. I'm not familiar enough with your horn to know if this would work for you. But, it looks inexpensive, easy to install and effective, so I'm thinking about installing one on my Conn 2J. Best of luck -



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[KHHS]

Interesting pictures. I am not shure, if there is a straight way up to my right or left hand position from the tuning slide. But maybe a slight curve would work as well. The advantage of this B&S is that is has the logo plate attached to the slide. Maybe i could fix it there. Interesting project! I will keep my eyes open.

I will not do any soldering myself but maybe I find a makeshift solution without that to try if it works.

I'm already getting used to my new horn. The C with 4 is no problem. And i'm considering later having the first slide beeing cut about 1" or so as you suggested. It's now all in and that would give me more options.

[corbasse]

Corbasse, do you remember if the mouthpiece made any difference in your case?

It made a big difference, although I didn't try too many different ones. The most important ones were a Helleberg, a Bach 18 and a Wick 2. The 18 was by far the best match, the Helleberg the worst. A standard German bowl-shaped mouthpiece would be your best bet.

On my instrument the C and B were so low that I couldn't lip them into place (and I'm a natural horn player, I'm trained to lip notes all over the place )
The first slide was also not short enough to get them right. So, if you decide to go for this horn, think about investing a few $$ in shortening it and/or getting that trigger.

[KHHS]

Here is an update after several weeks with my new (old) B&S:
- Intonation is great - I only need alternate fingerings for C and B in the staff - and for short or soft notes not even then. All other notes from low CC to F above the staff can easily be played in tune with standard fingerings (I guess, because that is not yet my "musically useful" range).
- Response and sound are nice and even across (my) range. Air consumption is lower than on my Amati 481 (bigger bore).
- Valves are fine.

I tried different mouthpieces, settled on the Yamaha Jim Self first, than on Yamaha Bobo Symphonie, which has a quicker response for me and needs less air. I will try a Marcinkiewicz N4 this week but i can live very well with the Bobo Symphonie if that is no improvement.

Conclusion: You were right, when you said that the B&S (GDR) is a good tuba and that i should give it some time. I don't think that i will ever outgrow this instrument! (Of course i wouldn't mind.)

[Tom Beck II]

I see nobody has mentioned misalignment of any valve bumpers. When I got my Eb the first thing I noticed was it sounded stuffy in the upper register, Bb, B, C, C#, D, Eb, E and F just wasn't speaking. I opened the tuning slide and shined a light to the 4th valve and noticed it was closing too far. After redoing the bumpers on that valve the upper notes spoke more freely. I eventually repadded and aligned all the valves and its like blowing through an open tube from bottom to top. I also found that reversing some of the valve slides can affect intonation. By that I mean just putting the slide in left side of slide to right side of receiver. Just make certain that diameters are equal. Also, check the water key. A weak spring or slightly angled out of place cork can create intonation problems.
If you have the opportunity, play with a strobotuner using different intervals and see if blowing pressure solves intonation issues.
Have fun.