Bydlo

[eupher61]

This has been a most educational thread. Let's see: I just learned that a contrabass tuba isn't so good at imitating that little euphonium in C that the French have mis-named a tuba. I learned that a bass tuba is better at that job. And, I have read the claim that a euphonium is yet better at imitating that French euphonium! Will wonders never cease?

Actually, looking at the progression above, I just had a thought. The ideal Bydlo instrument might be an Eb alto horn! No more problems hitting that pesky G#. Of course, flugelhorn players might suggest that the G# is even easier on their instrument, but I expect that we low brass people could shout that down.

Ever more musically yours,
Allen

you really haven't read the thread then.

[Eupharitone]

A Euphonium with the largest bore possible and played with the darkest, broadest sound possible should be used...a Euphonium can easily sound too bright for representing a hulking ox cart....but an F Tuba can sound too screechy in the upper register.

It's a shame there isn't an instrument that's both safe for the range and easy to play....and gets the right sound across during the entire course of the piece, like an Ab Tuba (er, Euphonium) or something.

[Rick Denney]

I think it would be great with a bit of edge in it, instead of a big "pillowy" contrabass.

Who said anything about "pillowy"? Even my Holton is not pillowy, when it's played properly. I do not share the dark, darker, darkest objective of some tuba players. I like that Holton precisely because it isn't pillowy.

I've heard the work played in a lot of different ways, with the non-Bydlo stuff on everything from a Miraphone 188 to a Yorkbrunner. I've never heard anyone really come across as pillowy.

I think my favorite sound for this work is an Alex, played by someone who knows how.

With the trombone players using equipment 50% bigger than the French pea-shooter stuff, getting a good balance from the tuba will be lots of work with a small instrument. I suppose the choice depends on the overall size and power of the orchestra, in addition to the hall.

Rick "looking for the two C's: Color and Clarity" Denney

[Allen]

<<quotation>>

you really haven't read the thread then.

Ah, the difficulties of being understood in a text-only medium when one doesn't use "smilies." I had read the entire thread. My post was intended to be sarcastic, and used hyperbole.

I'll make a direct statement: The instrument that Maurice Ravel scored for in the Bydlo solo would be called a euphonium in English. The French use the word tuba for the same thing. To call it a tuba part is to mistranslate from French to English. To play that solo on anything but a euphonium is to go against Ravel's intentions and against common sense.

A combination of ignorant conductors and macho tubists has created a terrible tradition, in which even the best professionals have cracked notes (I've heard it!) trying to play music that is inappropriate for the bass or contrabass tuba. That there a few tubists who can pull it off does not contradict my point. What's next, the Stars & Stripes piccolo solo played **at piccolo pitch**?

I thought sarcasm was the best response to this nonsense. And, when young tubists ask about how to play Bydlo, they should be told, "it's a euphonium solo, not a tuba solo."

Allen

[eupher61]

to call a "French C tuba" a euphonium shows you've never played one. (I have, briefly. and played Bydlo on it.)

That instrument has been discussed many times here, and it just ain't no euph.

[markaustinhowle]

Does anyone have any suggestions on playing the high G# in Bydlo?

Make a recording of yourself practicing and listen to your sound and compare that sound to professional recordings that are available to you.

Work it up on as many different instruments as are available to you as well and decide which one sounds like you want it to sound.

Here is a link to a recording my son did this past Friday. He wanted me to be sure and say he is only 16 years old. On this particular day he played Bydlo on an Eb King Helicon that is currently for sale and advertised as such in another section of Tube Net.

http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?PID=1035253&t=3288

[Rick Denney]

to call a "French C tuba" a euphonium shows you've never played one. (I have, briefly. and played Bydlo on it.)

That instrument has been discussed many times here, and it just ain't no euph.

It's been discussed a lot, but most of it has been conjecture, and even though I've read all the threads on the subject and am not without a good memory for detail, I could not be specific about what makes a French C tuba different from a euph (other than the extra valves).

So, since you have played one, maybe you can satisfy my curiosity on several points, and we can boil it down in one spot:

1. What is the bore? Does bore vary between various French C tuba models and vintages?

2. How does the bell stack taper compare to a modern euph? Is the throat wider? The bottom bow?

3. What mouthpiece shank does it take?

4. How does the intended mouthpiece compare with modern tuba and euphonium mouthpieces?

5. What sort of tone was produced by the best of the French orchestral tuba players who used the French C tuba? Was the tone concept trombone-like? High and clear? Dark and muffled?

I do have a bias. I am always amazed at the fine gradations of distinction given to tenor tubas. This one is a tenor tuba, that one is a baritone (American style), this other one is a euphonium, and that other one is a French C tuba, and they all look just alike in general plan even to a knowledgeable observer. But those who play them regularly stick to these distinctions of definition tenaciously. Tubas, on the other hand, vary widely in configuration, with huge differences in taper width, bell size, and bore size, and yet they are all called "tuba".

But the sure way to cure me of my bias is with hard data.

Rick "wondering if the same player on a modern euph would sound that different than on a French C tuba" Denney

[windshieldbug]

The problem with using the "French" C tuba for which this piece was written is that NONE of the rest of the orchestra (percussion included) are playing on the instruments that THEIR parts were written for, and you are unlikely to be doing a historic reenactment performance. Therefore the disclaimer: "use whatever SOUNDS best to modern ears!".

Rick is absolutely right (per usual) about the plethora of names for tenor instruments: Trombone, Bass Trombone, Trombone in F, Tenor, Baritone, Euphonium, Tenor Tuba, "French" Tuba, Saxhorn...

Whereas for the tuba vesions of these you get: Bass Tuba, Contrabass Tuba.

One thing does pique my interest, though:
Wade, ever thought of doing this on a G/G# Bass Bugle? Opinions?

[tuba_hacker]

I am always amazed at the fine gradations of distinction given to tenor tubas. This one is a tenor tuba, that one is a baritone (American style), this other one is a euphonium, and that other one is a French C tuba, and they all look just alike in general plan even to a knowledgeable observer. But those who play them regularly stick to these distinctions of definition tenaciously. Tubas, on the other hand, vary widely in configuration, with huge differences in taper width, bell size, and bore size, and yet they are all called "tuba".

Thanks for that Rick. I started a thread earlier this year that morphed into a discussion of what is a euphonium and what is a baritone. Moreover, I can truly understand that a person's perspective is shaped by where they sit and by what they play.

But for me, a humble bass trombone player, trying to understand the difference between a true baritone, a true euphonium, an American Baritone Horn, a "French C tuba", and whatever else happens to be out there, just makes my head hurt.

[JTJ]

I always agree with Rick on nomenclature. Unfortuntely, we've mostly all adopted the brass band schema, where a baritone is a baritone and a euphonium is a euphonium, and the twain shall never meet.

As a euphist, I say that the tubists have made too big a deal about Bydlo. Give it to any euphonium pro and she or he would find playing it fun and easy -- and could shade the sound any way the conductor wanted, from sharp and bright to dark and round.

Have you tubists listened, really listened, to the kind of stuff top level euphonium performers are required to play? The music is difficult almost beyond belief.

Bydlo would be a warmup exercise.

[eupher61]

I don't remember the mouthpiece specifically, but memory doesn't pull anything wierd up about it. I doubt I used my normal PT whatever, but don't know what it was. The bore on that particular Cuesnon, and others I've seen, is huge, IIRC it was close to my B&S F. So, yeah, a big instrument. IIRC, that is.

The literature written for that instrument has a huge range, well into the F's pedal range up to the super-Bydlo range. So, the mouthpiece can't really be too small. The 3rd valve was the French style (how's this for some 20 years later???) but others (including one I didn't get to play later on sometime) have/had the "normal" 3rd valve. The one I played was 6 valve, the one I didn't get a chance to play was 7 valve. Both were relatively heavy, considering the height, but the big bore and lots of extra valve tubing made a huge difference.

That's all from this memory box. I remember nailing Bydlo pretty well at the time...well, it seems like it now, at least.

[Wyvern]

There is no doubt that Bydlo is easier to perform on euphonium for those who the euph is their instrument. However, I don't think we will ever get agreement of what is most appropriate to use. It all depends on an individual's sound concept, what instruments they play and if they are personally capable of nailing it on a bass tuba (be that F or Eb).

Regarding the French C v Euphonium. I tried both belonging to a friend earlier this year in considering what to use for Fantasia on British Sea Songs. There is no doubt in my mind that they are different. The French C was to me as a tuba player easier to sound and in particular seemed to have a fuller more tuba like tone (using the same euph mouthpiece). I assume it must have been wider bore, although I did not physically check. I would think a small F would be the best modern substitute from a tonal perspective.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Last time I played this solo with an ensemble, it was in the fine transcription for band by Erik Leidzen. The Bydlo solo is actually scored in the euphonium part, but I was a big enough pain-in-the-*** to convince the director to let me play the solo on tuba. I used a quite small Eb upright three-valve horn with a somewhat flattened bell that I had purchased a few years earlier from an older gentleman in the local community band...I think it was a Conn. I remember calling it my "Bydlo horn," since it was the only real application I had for it.

I switched horns just for that movement and laid out on the low stuff...this was in a larger symphonic band with 5 or 6 tuba players. The horn worked perfectly, although I must point out that the Leidzen setting is a half-step lower than the original and the solo is much more comfortable in g minor than g# minor. The receiver of the instrument took a normal bass trombone mouthpiece shank...I recall using a Bach 1 1/2 G for the horn with good results.

Last I saw that horn, I had sold (or traded for a Perantucci mouthpiece?) it to Jarrod Williams when I went to Kansas for graduate school. Still have it, Jarrod?

[Rick Denney]

I always agree with Rick on nomenclature. Unfortuntely, we've mostly all adopted the brass band schema, where a baritone is a baritone and a euphonium is a euphonium, and the twain shall never meet....

...Bydlo would be a warmup exercise.

Yes, Bydlo is easy for a pro euphonium player. That's the point. But it isn't the tuba player who decides to hire a euphonium player--it's the maestro and the Director of Dollars for the orchestra. For amateur groups, it's usually a matter of availability. Will the Person In Charge pay for a euphonium player to come in and spend 30 seconds playing a part that has "tuba" written in the upper left corner? That seems to me unlikely at best.

I've always made a distinction between an English baritone, as used in a brass band, and an American baritone, which is what Americans called euphoniums until not too long ago. And English baritone is to an American baritone as a tenor trombone is to a bass trombone. Okay, an older bass trombone.

Rick "noting that American nomenclature has only recently been influenced by brass bands" Denney

[Rick Denney]

I don't remember the mouthpiece specifically, but memory doesn't pull anything wierd up about it. I doubt I used my normal PT whatever, but don't know what it was. The bore on that particular Cuesnon, and others I've seen, is huge, IIRC it was close to my B&S F. So, yeah, a big instrument. IIRC, that is.

I would really like to have some quality time with one. Somebody needs to really document the teakettle--there just doesn't seem to be much that's quantitative written about it.

Rick "who never had the impression that it was very large in bore" Denney

[windshieldbug]

One of them had a star shaped throat!

That was probably a Couesnon Guilbaut Rayee mouthpiece,
Embouchure Rayee = Grooved Mouthpiece,
Bte S G D G = Breveté Sans Garantie du Gouvernement

Pepper also made them for a time in the US

[Rick Denney]

I do remember Uncle Beer showing the pictures of the original mouthpieces for his French C tuba (cool!). One of them had a star shaped throat!

I wonder what the German tradition is for this. All of it on F?

I remember the picture. But without a scale, it doesn't mean much.

I expect Germans address the same as the rest of us. They play it on the F if they can really nail it. But the Alex 151G is, after all, made in Germany, according to a very German plan.

Rick "who'd love a 151 but not for the price it usually fetches" Denney

[jonesbrass]

I expect Germans address the same as the rest of us. They play it on the F if they can really nail it. But the Alex 151G is, after all, made in Germany, according to a very German plan.

In my German-printed excerpt book, the parts are very specific (in the fine German tradition). For every excerpt, they specify "tuba" or "contrabass-tuba." In this particular book, it does show Bydlo to be an F tuba excerpt. After hearing German pros on F, it doesn't suprise me. OTOH, I wouldn't be suprised to see a trombonist or tubaist in Germany pull out a "tenor tuba," in Bb or C.

[Wyvern]

In this particular book, it does show Bydlo to be an F tuba excerpt.

Even in Germany, they must have differing views. In the Edition Peters "Orchester Probespiel" the Bydlo excerpt is labeled:

Tb. solo (oder Tenortuba oder Bariton)

So I read that to mean it is optional

[UDELBR]

I remember the picture. But without a scale, it doesn't mean much.

The other picture from the same post that you apparently do remember, showing scale:



Star-throated mouthpiece is far left. #2 is the other mouthpiece supplied with the Couesnon (not all that much bigger inside). #3 is a Bach 11c trombone mouthpiece. #4 is a custom Stork tuba mouthpiece.