Tuba sin?

[iiipopes]

Exactly. Since you don't take them out like pistons, you basically do four things to them: 1) unscrew the rotor cap and fill it with sewing machine oil and put it back on; 2) add a little drop of the same to the spindle bearing on top; 3) put a couple of drops of 3-in-1 oil on the linkage. If it doesn't work, then it's been banged around or not maintained properly for the years before you got the tuba; and 4) (this one may be debated) put a few drops of valve oil down the lead pipe to clear gunk accumulated through the rotors.

Granted, if you use the wrong slide grease or try to "oil" the rotors improperly through the individual valve slides, you will wash grease down into the rotors causing them to gunk up.

If you want, you can do more: I had my rotor paddles and thumb ring realigned and resoldered to better fit my hand.

Finally, if you're simply looking for an excuse to get rid of it, there are a large number of TubeNetters who will be glad to take it off your hands for cheap. If you do, just don't come back a couple of years from now and ask for it back.

[sc_curtis]

(look at the youtube video of Owen Slade [?] playing the Ride under a 4/5 man trombone section (I think they had one extra for whatever reason?) on a Besson Eb).

*AHEM*

Owen Slade is not just some run-of-the-mill player. Just because HE can do it, doesn't mean us mortals can.

[Wyvern]

Owen Slade is not just some run-of-the-mill player. Just because HE can do it, doesn't mean us mortals can.

But he is not alone - such a Besson Eb is standard equipment for most British tubists.

I am only an amateur, but had no problem using a 981 playing Mahler 2 with a 100+ orchestra, or providing bass for a 45 piece wind band on occasions.

Also remember that a Besson 981 Eb with 19" bell like used by Owen Slade is not a typical bass tuba. They are much closer in tone to a 4/4 CC than any F tuba. In fact having played both a 981 and Miraphone 188, I would have no doubt that the the 981 can make a bigger, fatter sound in all but the lowest register!

Jonathan "who thinks the main advantage of a contrabass tuba is depth of tone in the low register"

[Rick Denney]

I think too many people are afraid of bass tubas.

Afraid?

Heh, heh. You slay me.

I play the F precisely because I AM afraid--afraid to attempt those licks on a contrabass. And, yes, that doesn't say much about my general abilities.

Rick "who advice stands, even considering that one of his F tubas is the only instrument that earned enough money to pay for itself" Denney

[Rick Denney]

I say get a bass tuba if you really want one.

You know, you can sell what you have, buy something you want, decide you don't like it, sell it, buy something else, decide that isn't quite right, sell it, buy something else, and keep doing that for years. At the end of that process, you'll discover that you don't know any horn really well, you still haven't developed your own voice, and (if you are budget constrained) you are still playing compromised old and cheap instruments because of all that "changing hands" tax you've been paying.

If you have the money, fine. I've bought a lot of instruments over the years, but I didn't start that process until my late 20's when I had the money. And I never sold one tuba to pay for another (though I may have sold one that was made redundant by another--and then only after playing the new one long enough to be sure). For example, even though I have a great 5/4 piston contrabass and a great 6/4 piston contrabass, I still keep my Miraphone 186. It's not for sale.

And before you tell me you can know at a young age what you really want, review your own posts since you've been on Tubenet. I've seen you express interest in a vast range of instruments, exploring radically different mixes of instruments at each fresh insight. Maybe it's best to wait until the fresh insights slow down a bit (that's called experience) and then make informed choices.

Rick "who never trades down" Denney

[Rick Denney]

I don't really get this.

how would having pistons make your range better?

other than the horn you have with pistons is better than the one you have with rotors.

I'm similarly confused.

Frankly, my 186 has a more secure upper register than either my York Master or my Holton. The low register is also secure, but without the same sound as the others. I certainly don't have more range on those piston instruments.

My piston F (which is small) has a more predictably easy low register than my rotary F (which is big), though the rotary F has a lovely upper singing voice and projection beyond the small piston instrument.

You can't generalize. Each instrument stands on its own, with whatever valves it happens to have.

Rick "finding that such statement reinforce the value of the recommendations in this thread" Denney

[The Big Ben]

All of this discussion kind of reminds me of something that one of my friends, a long time high school golf coach, said to one of his players.

Seems they were on the driving range and Mitch was trying to get the kid to move his hands in a certain way. Over and over and over again. Finally, he asks the kid, "What's the problem? Am I not clear?" The kid answers, "Coach, if I do that, it's going to mess my swing all up." Mitch just looked at him and said, "Son, at this point in your game, you don't *have* a swing. Pay attention and do what I say because you don't know enough yet to know when you are doing anything right or anything wrong."

The best in the business have described what this particular young guy should do. If he wants a career in Tuba, I hope he follows it because he seems like a neat kid with lots of enthusiasm.

[Donn]

You know, you can sell what you have, buy something you want, decide you don't like it, sell it, buy something else, decide that isn't quite right, sell it, buy something else, and keep doing that for years. At the end of that process, you'll discover that you don't know any horn really well, you still haven't developed your own voice, and (if you are budget constrained) you are still playing compromised old and cheap instruments because of all that "changing hands" tax you've been paying.

This is true, but it's easy to say when you like what you have. I gather that the vast majority of us here have gone through a moderately extensive list of past & present tubas and are now playing the survivor(s) of that process.

If you want to discuss this process in the philosophical abstract, I think it's fair to say it can go either way -- there are a wide range of tubas out there, and it's hard to imagine that no person X and tuba Y exists, for whom the transition from Miraphone 186 to Y would lead to some important progress.

I pretty much gave up on the tuba a few years back, after great frustration with oversize BBb tubas I had at the time. A couple of $200, $300 Eb antiques really turned that around, and now I feel like I'm starting to get the sound I want, the range, and it just depends on more practice and focus. Maybe that will translate back to the contrabass tuba, or maybe it won't, but I wasn't getting anywhere with it anyway.

I don't mean to hold myself out as a bass-tuba-only success story, because I really have no interest in legit tuba playing and my situation would surely be a lot different if I did. I'm just saying that among the handful of tubas I've bought, at least a couple made a really big difference for me - they weren't just a series of distractions.

For someone who has some of that self-directed exploratory nature - as most of us do - a good tuba doesn't have to be The Tuba that is the key to fame and fortune, it only has to have some virtue that gets you somewhere you weren't already getting. I'm sure everyone's right that a contrabass tuba is going to be the essential instrument for most professionally oriented players, but if there's plenty of funds for an old Eb beater, it's probably a great idea.

[Rick Denney]

This is true, but it's easy to say when you like what you have. I gather that the vast majority of us here have gone through a moderately extensive list of past & present tubas and are now playing the survivor(s) of that process.

If you want to discuss this process in the philosophical abstract, I think it's fair to say it can go either way -- there are a wide range of tubas out there, and it's hard to imagine that no person X and tuba Y exists, for whom the transition from Miraphone 186 to Y would lead to some important progress.

I'm not talking in the abstract. I'm talking to two people: Andrew the Tuba Player, and Bob1062. When you are older and have advanced to the point of knowing what you want, or have gotten to the point where collecting is fun for its own sake, then go for it. Like I said, F tubas are fun, and I, too, sometimes follow my whims. But I have the money and don't depend on tuba playing to feed my family.

But for a young player just starting out, it's dangerous to reject a tuba that has a long history of success to follow a whim. It's better to stay focused on the ears, lips, lungs, fingers, and brain and not on the brass. You can search for the perfect instrument later, when the tools for evaluating perfection are a little more developed, and when doing so doesn't distract you from what's really important.

Rick "thinking those who know what they want don't ask us to tell them what they want" Denney

[iiipopes]

What Rick said. I am now 45, and by being careful and watching carefully, and throw a little luck in for good measure, even if you add in all the repairs, bad mouthpiece experiments, etc., I still have way, way less than $4000 in my stable, but then again, I'm not an aspiring tuba major, either.

As a college major starting out, it's a whole 'nuther kettle of fish.

[keronarts]

MORE of what Rick said ..... STRONG agreement here with Rick Denney, iiipopes, and a few others, actually. If you haven't already taken that "For Sale" sign off the Mirafone, now is definitely the time to do so. Save that for your first car or something equally ridiculous. But the Mirafone 186 is a genuine classic -- rarely a lemon -- and is something that could well last you a LOOONNGGG time and in the best way. It's a real all-around bread and butter horn that can do so many things quite well -- it's just not worth thinking about throwing it over the cliff. That would be unless you DESPERATELY needed the cash now, or some other extenuating circumstance, but it doesn't seem that that is happening.

Specialty horns may happen, but the big-and-huge, the small-and-light are all things that can be added on AFTER you've developed something of an individual voice and expression mode through something that could be the basis for most of your playing. Really knowing and going for those special sounds will also come with specific work you may take on or particular performance outlets you regularly play. Unless you already are absolutely sure of those things -- that also makes you quite clairvoyant, something I also have a tinge of doubt about -- those decisions will best occur at those specific times. .... somewhere in your future, after you begin to come to grips with all the necessary fundamentals to get you from here to there.

Right after the 186 CC, a good all-around horn might be the MW 2141 Eb, the Willson 3400, the Gronitz PE-55 Eb -- many people here seem to regard the better Eb horns as a good effective way to touch all the bases. It'd depend on what you decide on doing and where you'll be doing it.

Btw, I also agree with the schlep about spelling finesse -- a good way to stay out of that pot hole is to do it up first in Word, or one of the programs with a built-in spell check, so the school marm contingent on this board has someplace else to focus their very ample attention.

[andrew the tuba player]

Ok. Thanks Bob. Thats cool. I dont hink i have to much money right now though. PM me the price info/pics if you like please thanks.
And, i'd like to say, I know what i want. I'd like to have a smaller Eb or F tuba and woulda done it along time ago. But, I wanted advise from experianced people on the subject. I've played a variety of different horns. And, i've liked the smaller ones that i've played. Plus every time i hear and Eeper or an f tuba it always sounds alot better than the bigger horns. I have played an Eb horn for a little bit. My repair man (Craig Hienrich if anyone knows him) has a big old conn 3 valve Eb tuba hat i fell in love with the minute i picked it up. He showed me the fingerings and i couldnt put it down. So, yeah. Thanks for all the info.

[TexTuba]

And, i'd like to say, I know what i want. I'd like to have a smaller Eb or F tuba and woulda done it along time ago. But, I wanted advise from experianced people on the subject.

So let's sum it up:

1) You've had your mind made up from the beginning.
2) You wanted to ask for advice from people who know what they're talking about.
3) Despite their VERY good advice, you still are more than likely going to sell a SOLID CC for the "do-it-ALL" bass tuba.

What I really think you wanted was for people to back you up on your idea of having a bass tuba as a one and only horn. Most did not, so you're going to do what you ALREADY knew you were going to do. Am I wrong?

Ralph

[ZNC Dandy]

(look at the youtube video of Owen Slade [?] playing the Ride under a 4/5 man trombone section (I think they had one extra for whatever reason?) on a Besson Eb).

Ok, that is inane. Owen Slade is a monster of a player. What he can do on a given instrument is so far above reproach, or even comparison with the likes of you, he, I, or all but a tiny minute fraction of the population of planet Earth. That being said, to the original poster, play every horn you can. Pick which one helps you produce the sound you have in your head. That is going to make you want to keep coming back to the horn, and make it hard to put down. That will only help you improve as a player.

[andrew the tuba player]

So let's sum it up:

1) You've had your mind made up from the beginning.
2) You wanted to ask for advice from people who know what they're talking about.
3) Despite their VERY good advice, you still are more than likely going to sell a SOLID CC for the "do-it-ALL" bass tuba.

What I really think you wanted was for people to back you up on your idea of having a bass tuba as a one and only horn. Most did not, so you're going to do what you ALREADY knew you were going to do. Am I wrong?

Ralph

Yes. I first started asking about an Ftuba and noone really liked that. so, I went to the next best thing...The Eb. I've goten some pretty good responce on that so...[/quote]

[The Big Ben]

So let's sum it up:

1) You've had your mind made up from the beginning.
2) You wanted to ask for advice from people who know what they're talking about.
3) Despite their VERY good advice, you still are more than likely going to sell a SOLID CC for the "do-it-ALL" bass tuba.

What I really think you wanted was for people to back you up on your idea of having a bass tuba as a one and only horn. Most did not, so you're going to do what you ALREADY knew you were going to do. Am I wrong?

Ralph

Yes. I first started asking about an Ftuba and noone really liked that. so, I went to the next best thing...The Eb. I've goten some pretty good responce on that so...

[/quote]

It's not the "buy an F horn" that people were advising against but rather the "sell the CC".

If you want a future in tuba performance, you've been told by people who know not to sell your CC, a fine perhaps even better than fine example of a horn. You are going to need that horn in the near future and might not have the $$$ to get another when the time comes. If a future in tuba performance is what you are looking for...

If you don't want to attempt to listen to advice, don't ask the question.

[MikeMason]

People learn from their mistakes,not wise advice...

[Rick Denney]

Is that really worse than having 2 different bass tubas and 4 different contrabass tubas? Rick, I VERY much enjoy reading your posts so please don't think I'm attacking you. But I do want to defend myself.

No defense needed. You are free to make your own choices. I would submit, however, that you have talked about a lot more horns than you have lived with for more than a few minutes. I have, too, so I don't intend that as a rebuke.

But what I feel free to do as a hobbyist with more money than sense is not the basis for advice I give to those who are not in my position. Your own explorations (and even conclusions) may work for you, but you have to think carefully whether that experience can serve as the basis for advice to someone in high school. If I advised Andrew to follow in my footsteps, I would tell him to forget tuba playing, study something that will actually make money (like, oh, say, engineering) and then buy is own tubas with his own money. Obviously, for someone who has a dream of being a professional musician--which I never did--that advice would be unhelpful.

It is true that many professional tuba players train for an orchestra gig and end up feeding themselves with other kinds of gigs. But I'll bet that all tuba players not in first-tier orchestras make money in a range of gigs, and the more versatile they are, the more gigs they can play. So, even if a guy makes money playing jazz, he is probably not going to be happy having to turn down a gig as a sub in a local semi-pro orchestra.

So, the best advice is: Learn it all. Don't specialize, or at least put off specialization as long as possible.

That leads to making sound choices of an instrument: First, a good 4/4 contrabass, because you can do nearly anything with that instrument from quintet to jazz to orchestra to polka band. Try playing a polka-band gig on an F--they don't even do that in Germany. Then, add specialty instruments. I have made money with my F, because I was the high tuba in a tuba quartet. That's manna from Heaven, not the basis for a solid pro career or advice to pro wannabes. The guy who played the C tuba in that group is the solid pro--I was just the color instrument most of the time. He laid down the foundation.

That guy has played his 5-valve 186 CC for decades in all manner off gigs, from polka band to subbing in an pro orchestra. Just recently, he finally decided to add a specialty instrument--a larger tuba. He owns an Eb, but it falls in the category of toy--the intonation is not reliable enough to use for gigs. He wants an F, and if my Yamaha F every turns up missing, I'll know where to look. But now he plays the same part in that quartet that I used to play on F--but he uses a C. He can get away with that because his fundamentals on C are SO MUCH better than mine. I needed the F to provide the security in the high range of that part. That's what makes him a real pro and me a hobbyist with a couple of pro gigs on my resume.

Are you starting to get a picture of what I'm saying? Make your 4/4 contrabass your do-all instrument, and then you can go in whatever direction you need to--but only when you need it.

If you live in Germany, then you can make a large F your do-all instrument. Likewise, you can live with just a large Eb if you live in the UK. But in the US, you have to work much harder to make a smaller bass tuba work as a general-purpose instrument for the range of gigs you might get, and for the sounds US conductors and clients often expect.

There are those who have done it. Bloke has used an F for many gigs, and for a long time the F was the only constant in his stable. But he always either owned or borrowed a big C for orchestra gigs, and even now he uses his C helicon for jazz. Jay Rozen specialized in F for a long time, but only after he earned his way with a C for many years, even after he no longer did orchestra gigs and just did avant garde jazz stuff. Wade Rackley has a full-time orchestra gig, but he also plays jazz and quintet gigs routinely. He has an F, but he could easily do all those gigs on a C. He could not do them all on an F, and meet the expectations of his customers. When Lee Hipp accepted the San Antonio orchestra gig, he did not even own an F. He'd also been a finalist at Chicago without his own F.

This is not a slam to you at all, and I hope you don't take it that way. But what works for you (or what you think you can make work) is not necessarily the basis for good advice to a kid in high school. If Andrew is as smart as he seems, he'll focus on fundamentals and his own musical sense and skills, and save chasing brass for later.

Rick "saying too much, as usual" Denney

[iiipopes]

There is more than one reason Rick has the moniker "Resident Genius." This is one of them. It is also common sense, albeit there is very little of that in the world in any given context these days.

Here is another take on the same idea: if you can't master what is considered a standard instrument for performance of the repertoire, no amount of wishin' and hopin' or taking off on tangents or substituting whim instruments for practice will get you there either.

[sloan]

If you don't want to attempt to listen to advice, don't ask the question.

If you can't handle people rejecting your advice - don't offer "advice". Find a situation where you can ORDER people to do what you want them to do.

All young tubists should rejoice in Andrew's decision to toss his C and explore F/Eb/whatever else. That's one less competitor for real jobs in the future.