Question for those bass trombone players

mTaUrBkA · Post by **mTaUrBkA** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:41 pm

What are the pros and cons about independent and dependent valve set ups?

mTaUrBkA · Post by **mTaUrBkA** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:54 pm

Just to help any suggestion directions. I am looking at playing strictly jazz....if that makes a difference

quinterbourne · Post by **quinterbourne** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:23 pm

pro - less resistance due to only one valve in the main bugle
con - cannot use the D valve on it's own

MartyNeilan · Post by **MartyNeilan** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:33 pm

quinterbourne wrote:pro - less resistance due to only one valve in the main bugle

Also, since tubists are freaks about conical horns, the "gooseneck" is one long taper after the F valve, instead of being cylindrical with to valves inline.

djwesp · Post by **djwesp** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:10 am

Dave M wrote: Also, don't rule out a single-valve bass bone if you don't absotively, posilutely NEED the extra facility of a double-valve in the lower range.

I've never professed to be a good bass boner, but I find most of the standard Bass Bone rep to be VERY difficult on a single valve. Low B natural is almost impossible. Orchestral rep, Bordogni Bass Bone, VW, Stevens, become very difficult without it.

Wes "probably completely alone on this" pendergrass

RyanSchultz · Post by **RyanSchultz** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:50 am

I think a lot of Bass Trombonists feel that, with the valves all down, the independent set up blows more freely. However, John Rojak is able to do great things with his dependent valve Bach; a bit of a contrarian I suppose. . .

OldsRecording · Post by **OldsRecording** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:59 am

When I played alot of bass 'bone, the horns I had had dependant valves. I never had any issues with resistance, the only problem was the fact that having two thumb valves was awkward(at least my Bach had rollers on the spatulae). It seems like the best set up would be dependant valves with independant (i.e. thumb/middle finger) valves.

tubafatness · Post by **tubafatness** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:25 pm

RyanSchultz wrote:I think a lot of Bass Trombonists feel that, with the valves all down, the independent set up blows more freely. However, John Rojak is able to do great things with his dependent valve Bach; a bit of a contrarian I suppose. . .

Also add to the bag of "contrarians" David Taylor, who many, (myself included,) consider to be one of the best bass trombone players out there right now. He actually went back to a dependent Edwards bass bone after a few years playing on an Edwards independent horn. He sounded just fine on a dependent horn when I saw him play with the Mintzer Big Band, although he would probably do just as well on any horn!

And, to comment on what someone said earlier, if you plan on playing jazz music, (especially anything written in the last 40 years or so,) you should definitely plan on getting a double-valve horn. Cranking out a couple of pedal Cs and Bs on a single-valve horn is not the most fun to be had...

mTaUrBkA · Post by **mTaUrBkA** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:00 pm

What are a few good examples of dependent and indepentent horns I should try?

djwesp · Post by **djwesp** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:50 pm

mTaUrBkA wrote:What are a few good examples of dependent and indepentent horns I should try?

I prefer the holton independents.

NOTE: These instruments aren't the "in" horns right now, but I don't care.

I say at least try the Holton TR181:

1. The bell has a lot of throat. This keeps the low range from sounding very coughy. I think it keeps the horn versatile. It also allows me to play softer without my timbre sticking out of the ensemble.

2. The linkage is a lot more contained than on other independents. and I've never had an issue with them. (completely like all the other b-bones i've seen).

3. The "f" wrap is traditional. this may not sound like much, but if you play tenor trombone, it feels like that on the F side. Many other bass bones have a different wrap on the F side and this makes it difficult to play without a drastic change in sound.

tubafatness · Post by **tubafatness** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:41 pm

mTaUrBkA wrote:What are a few good examples of dependent and indepentent horns I should try?

For a good dependent, the Getzen 1062FD bass bone is a very solid horn. The "David Taylor" model, as its called, has a great low register, and is very free-blowing. It worked well for me in a jazz setting, but it can easily double for more "symphonic" uses. Getzen also has a independent Thayer valve horn, which is also a very solid trombone. Now, if only they made a double Thayer dependent horn...

tubamirum · Post by **tubamirum** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:54 pm

Shires (in Boston) makes a fine Bass tb.

mTaUrBkA · Post by **mTaUrBkA** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:13 pm

Thanks for the input. I think from what I have experienced I will be happier with an independent setup....but I want be well researched before I purchase anything. I met Dave Taylor and Manhattan Brass a few weeks ago at a clinic, I didn't even think about asking him.

Conn 2J CC · Post by **Conn 2J CC** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:39 pm

I have the Getzen independent Thayer valve horn Tubafatness mentioned. Mine is the 3062 AFR with a red rose bell. I love everything about it. Great tone, free blowing, etc. I had a Holton TR-181 for 20 years, which was a great axe too. But, it took my wife less than 30 seconds of playing on the 3062 herself to know why I've wanted a Bass Bone with Thayer valves ever since I saw and played a horn with them for the first time in 1984.

Chadtuba · Post by **Chadtuba** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:06 am

If I may throw my 2 cents in here, I find that having the independent valves helps me out a lot not being a slide guy. As far as models, I'd agree that the Getzen with the thayers is a fantastic horn, but on the more inexpensive side I would highly reccomned the Jupiter 740L. It is an identical copy of the Conn 112H at $500-1K less. I've had mine for about a year and a half and absolutely love it for the big band that I play in. We had a guy come sit in last week that had the Conn 112H and I couldn't tell any difference between my horn and his (neither could the trumpet player who was sitting across from us.

tbn.al · Post by **tbn.al** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:57 am

There are not many B's in the jazz repertoire. There are only a few instances where a second valve is necessary in the orchestral literature. A single trigger 9 1/2 inch bell bass weighs a pound and a half less than a 10 1/2 inch 2 trigger bass. There is much less resistance in the air flowing through only one valve, I don't care how fancy your valve design. George Roberts did a whole career with one valve. Single valve horns are much cheaper. All this being said, I play a double independant Hagmann exclusively. I haven't absolutely had to have the 2nd valve but once in 6 years with the orchestra, but I HAD to have it then. I do have to have it on a weekly basis to play the bottom parts in trombone choir. The range there is pedal f to f in the staff. Find what sounds good to your ear and get one or two valves based on what you will be playing. If you are not doing a lot of intricate work below the f at the bottom of the staff get a standard rotor dependent rather than techie and expensive independent free flow. Otherwise you just might find over the long haul that there is too much weight on your shoulder and not enough in your wallet.

MartyNeilan · Post by **MartyNeilan** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:41 am

tbn.al wrote:There are not many B's in the jazz repertoire.

Old-school, traditional big-band arrangements, you are absolutely correct. However, there are a lot of newer arrangements that are full of them. I did a tour 2 yrs ago where i configured my D slide to Db because I was hitting sooo many low B's all over the place, and it kept them towards the middle of the slide. I also know of many times where a bass trombone is called to play a tuba part in a quintet, studio, or scaled-down orchestra situations - (sad but true!) - and tuba parts have lots of low B's.

Now, if you have a good flat-E pull on a single trigger, that would probably get you by if you don't mind relearning your trigger positions and going all the way down to the far edge of the slide on a regular basis. GR also had amazing "false tones" on the low stuff as well.

tuba_hacker · Post by **tuba_hacker** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:43 am

I find most of the standard Bass Bone rep to be VERY difficult on a single valve. Low B natural is almost impossible. Orchestral rep, Bordogni Bass Bone, VW, Stevens, become very difficult without it.

Agree, it is impossible to play low B-natural with a single valve, and near impossible to pull off Bordogni et al, but they are melodic and technical etudes, not jazz pieces. tbn.al is right. Not much call in the jazz literature for low B-naturals.

It's amazing the efforts in terms of money, and in getting used to a two-valve horn, a bass trombonist will endure to facilitate the execution of that note. (And, in the interest of full disclosure, I am guilty as charged.)

A single valve bass trombone will give you good value for your money. Good used horns can be had for under $1000. Expect a good two-valve horn to start around $1500. Used.

Your learning curve with be easier with one valve. I bought my first independent valve trombone last month - I've been playing bass trombone for years and I expect a long learning curve while I get used to it.

And then, there's always the who-has-the-baddest-double-valve bass trombone factor. But, you're above that, right?

What are a few good examples of dependent and indepentent horns I should try?

A bass trombone isn't an impulse buy. Certainly you have more flexibility with independents, but you'll also have to learn how to use them. There are the usual suspects...Getzen, Holton, Yamaha, Edwards, Shires, Bach. Try as many as you can. Folks will tell you independents blow better, or dependents blow better, whatever. Thayers versus rotaries versus whatever-else. Lots of choices. Lots of opinions. Check out tromboneforum.org for even more opinions. But...it's your choice. Enjoy the ride.

tbn.al · Post by **tbn.al** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:44 am

[quote="MartyNeilan]GR also had amazing "false tones" on the low stuff as well.[/quote]

At least for the last 2/3 of his career GR also had something we don't have, total control. As in, "If the piece has an uncomfortably placed lick we'll just change the key." Wallah! B's magically become Bb's or C's. I had an album once from which I learned a particularly pesky solo. I found it written out some years later only to realize it was recorded a step lower. The printed version was pratically unplayable. The printed B's had appeared. Nothing against GR, he's my hero, but if I had the power there are a couple of licks I would have loved to have changed. BTW, I just had a Ray Charmichael Brass Choir vinyl given to me with GR on bass bone and Tommy Johnson on tuba. Unbelievable stuff! It's going to CD asap.

Tom Mason · Post by **Tom Mason** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:44 pm

1. Someone back in this thread said that they wished that they could get a Thayer in dependent set-up. Getzen and Shiers make such a trombone.

2. The main reason I like independent setups is to be able to play F in 2nd with the second valve. It gives me room to tune F and c.

3. Some independent players like to set up the 2nd valve to G. This puts Eb in 1st with both valves.

4. Whatever setup you decide, also decide the 2nd valve setup for yourself.

5. I like Hagmann valves more than Thayers. Easier access to clean and maintainance. Seriously check them out.

Tom Mason

TubeNet

Question for those bass trombone players

Question for those bass trombone players

BBN

Re: BBN

Actually.......................