5th Valves

[Eric B]

Pardon my ignorance, but I need a little enlightenment. I tried to search on the old TubeNet, but I keep getting errors. I don't think the search on the new TubeNet works as well as the old one sometimes.

Now to my topic:

I have never owned a contrabass tuba with a 5th valve; my 186 is a 4 valve.

1. What are the different tubing lengths of 5th valves?

2. What are the advantages and disadvantages of each?

I'm thinking that the flat whole step is preferred because it makes an easy transposition, especially when playing a CC tuba since it basically turns the tuba into a BBb tuba when it is depressed.

[Art Hovey]

A pretty detailed discussion of this topic can be found here:
http://www.galvanizedjazz.com/tuba/5thvalve.html

(possibly more than you wanted)

[Eric B]

A pretty detailed discussion of this topic can be found here:
http://www.galvanizedjazz.com/tuba/5thvalve.html

(possibly more than you wanted)

Yes, I found your site through Google when searching for information on 5th valves. You are way too smart for my limited understanding. I'll have to study this further when my mind is fresh. Whew

[Eric B]

A pretty detailed discussion of this topic can be found here:
http://www.galvanizedjazz.com/tuba/5thvalve.html

(possibly more than you wanted)

You are way too smart for my limited understanding.

This link explains why!

http://tinyurl.com/yomg9y

What a great mind!

[Casey Tucker]

this actually brings up a question i've been wondering about. technically, shouldn't the 5th valve slide be the same length as a 1st valve slide? i may be way off but i've tried to rationalize this. if 1st valve plays a Bb/F, why would 5th be the same thing but flat?

[Tom]

There are a variety of 5th valve lengths out there.

1/2 Step (think slightly longer version of 2nd valve). This could be setup on the Getzen G-50, for example.

Flat Whole Step (longer version of 1st valve)

2-3 (so called because it's about equal of the 2-3 valve combination). It's commonly found on older-but-not-too-old Miraphone CC tubas.

There are also tubas with unusual 5th valve lengths out there. Some of the Walter Hilgers model Meinl Weston F tubas have non-traditional 5th valve setups.

Alexander tubas (vintage ones, that is) were available new with a 5th or 6th valve added in whatever length the purchaser wanted. I know of one Alexander for sure that has a 3/4 step 5th valve.

I'd discount a 1/2 step fifth valve. It might be nice to have around if it could be used in addition to a flat whole step 5th valve, but on it's own I don't believe it would be terribly useful. The flat whole step has more-or-less become the standard 5th valve configuration and seems to be the easiest for people to adjust to, though there is certainly nothing wrong with the 2-3 combination.

These days, you'd be hard pressed to find a new tuba with a 5th valve in any configuration other than the flat whole step.

Oh, and be warned that using a flat whole step 5th valve on a CC tuba with the idea that you'll be able to make yourself a nice BBb tuba doesn't work very well. When used in such a way, the tuba usually generates some suspect intonation and becomes painfully stuffy.

But, my CC (an Alexander 163) is a 4 valve, so what do I know...

[Tom]

this actually brings up a question i've been wondering about. technically, shouldn't the 5th valve slide be the same length as a 1st valve slide? i may be way off but i've tried to rationalize this. if 1st valve plays a Bb/F, why would 5th be the same thing but flat?

The 5th valve tubing length is slightly longer (read: flat) because it helps compensate for the tendency of the low register to go sharp as you descend since the 5th is most commonly used to facilitate access to and provide ease of playing in the lower register.

[Eric B]

this actually brings up a question i've been wondering about. technically, shouldn't the 5th valve slide be the same length as a 1st valve slide? i may be way off but i've tried to rationalize this. if 1st valve plays a Bb/F, why would 5th be the same thing but flat?

The 5th valve tubing length is slightly longer (read: flat) because it helps compensate for the tendency of the low register to go sharp as you descend since the 5th is most commonly used to facilitate access to and provide ease of playing in the lower register.

Yes and I think it is meant not to replace the first valve, but to lower any of the other valve combinations a whole step thus filling the gap and making the the Db/C# playable and also giving more alternate fingering possibilities. It likely aids in providing better trilling alternatives as well.

[Allen]

Regarding a fifth valve that is tuned to be a flat whole step: The first valve lowers pitch a whole tone when used by itself. When the fourth valve is down, the first valve tubing isn't long enough to lower pitch by a whole tone. Fifth valve to the rescue! The fifth valve tubing is long enough to lower the tuba's pitch by a whole tone when added to the fourth valve.

Thus, on a CC tuba: C (open) down to Bb: press the first valve. Low G (fourth valve) down to low F: press the fifth valve.

There are three very common notes I use the fifth valve on: C# (235), low F# (235) and low F (45). For low Eb and below, the fifth valve is used, all the way down to low C#. With so many valves, you frequently can choose fingerings that are sharper of flatter.

Another thing I have occasionally done is use the fifth valve to facilitate some trills or rapid note alternations -- although I have had to adjust the valve slides to do so. The fingerings? Whatever you can figure our for your tuba and your musical situation.

Cheers,
Allen

[Casey Tucker]

alright, that makes sense. that's always made me wonder. i mean, i knew the reasons for making it a schosh flatter but always wondered if (technically) they were relative in size. here's another since tom mentioned this:
does anyone know of a CC with 6 valves w/ the 5th being a flat whole step and the 6th being a half step? it seems like it would be a great idea in regards to the options it would open up. ex, marches for wind ensemble in a key like Db (can't think of one off the top of my head). the 6th valve would make things a little easier i would think. or maybe not.

btw, i'm throwing around ideas. im in the kind of mood where i'm asking a lot of hypathetical questions. please forgive :D.

[Wyvern]

Oh, and be warned that using a flat whole step 5th valve on a CC tuba with the idea that you'll be able to make yourself a nice BBb tuba doesn't work very well. When used in such a way, the tuba usually generates some suspect intonation and becomes painfully stuff.

Except the rotary valve B&S/VMI Neptune which plays pretty well as a BBb! I used mine such in brass band until I got a "real" BBb.

[Tom]

does anyone know of a CC with 6 valves w/ the 5th being a flat whole step and the 6th being a half step? it seems like it would be a great idea in regards to the options it would open up. ex, marches for wind ensemble in a key like Db (can't think of one off the top of my head). the 6th valve would make things a little easier i would think. or maybe not.

I have seen two 6 valve CC tubas and have heard of another. All are vintage Alexander 163 tubas.

I do not recall exactly what the configuration of the 5th and 6th valves were.

[eupher61]

to add my little bit to the length of the 5th valve question--

It's the same as a single trigger trombone having, in real practice, only 6 positions with the trigger. As mentioned, the valve by itself is fine, but with other slides added there is need for extra length. The more combined valves, the more the total length is short--thus, the sharp 1-3 combination, for example.

[Dean E]

Regarding a fifth valve that is tuned to be a flat whole step: The first valve lowers pitch a whole tone when used by itself. When the fourth valve is down, the first valve tubing isn't long enough to lower pitch by a whole tone. Fifth valve to the rescue! The fifth valve tubing is long enough to lower the tuba's pitch by a whole tone when added to the fourth valve.

Thus, on a CC tuba: C (open) down to Bb: press the first valve. Low G (fourth valve) down to low F: press the fifth valve.

There are three very common notes I use the fifth valve on: C# (235), low F# (235) and low F (45). For low Eb and below, the fifth valve is used, all the way down to low C#. With so many valves, you frequently can choose fingerings that are sharper of flatter. <snip>

Besides those three common notes for CC tuba, I play low Ab (3rd ledger line) (15).

Also, it is worth pointing out that the diameter of fourth and fifth valve tubing may also be dimensioned slightly larger because of the horn's theoretical bugle concept. In other words, the nearer the bell, the larger the tubing diameter.

For example, my Willson 3050RZ has these valve tubing diameters.

Bore-Valves 1, 2, 3- 0.787 in (20 mm)
Bore-4th Valve- 0.827 in (21 mm)
Bore-5th Valve- 0.866 in (22 mm)

[Ferguson]

does anyone know of a CC with 6 valves w/ the 5th being a flat whole step and the 6th being a half step?

Yes, Alex 163 CC. They still offer that six valve option, as well as a 5th valve that's convertible between flat half step and flat whole step. I bet Miraphone would offer a six valve CC too, as they make most every tuba to order. That makes me want to order one. A 6-valve 186 CC, in gold brass. That might make them grimace. Maye a 188?

Caution: fingerings ahead

Sixth valves on a rotary tuba have another use. Due to the peculiarity of rotary tubas, some slurs are easier when adding or subtracting valves, rather than changing valves. For example, try slurring Eb to D (2-3 to 4) on a rotary CC tuba and you know what I mean. Those with perfect fingering technique, congratulations. For the rest of us, geez, be careful. If you have 6 valves, you can play the Eb 2-3 and add the 6th to get the D 2-3-6. No problemo.

Similarly, A to Ab (1-2 to 2-3) can be played 1-2 to 1-2-6. G to Ab can be played 2-3-6 to 2-3.

The other use of a 6th valve is to get notes like the low F# (now 4-6 instead of 2-4) right in tune.

On a 6 valve F tuba, you can play the Vaughn Williams Gb to pedal F as 1-2-3-4-5 to 1-2-3-4-5-6. <grin>

I usually tell people the long whole step 5th valve is just a whole step when you've got a lot of valves down, and the flat half step 6th valve is used as a half step when you've got a lot of valves down too.

Best,

Steve Ferguson

[iiipopes]

OK, everybody has answered what a 5th valve does; nobody answered his initial question why a 5th valve whole step tubing is longer than 1st valve whole step tubing.

The short answer is that the difference in pitches is proportional, not linear.

OK, the hard math: every time you go up or down a semitone, the pitch doesn't change by a certain or fixed number of vibrations. It changes proportionally, in an equally tempered system, so that each pitch is a multiple or divisor of 2^1/12 of the reference frequency. So that if an open horn is x length, the length of tubing needed for a whole step down is x multiplied by 2^2/12 (two half steps equals a whole step, so the numerator of the fraction is 2 instead of 1). So, if you already have some other valve down, like 4th valve, you have a lot more tubing to be proportional to, or x + y. So, you can see that x + y, being more than x alone, means that the result is longer. So the 5th valve has to be longer to make the true full step farther down from having the 4th valve down instead of 1st valve in relation to open.

I know, clear as mud. I hope this helps.

[jeopardymaster]

I hate to add even more complexity to this thread, but there is a 6 valve Alex Model 163 CC for sale at Baltimore Brass. It's been there for quite some time, which I find surprising because I tried it out a while back and considered it to be a fine instrument. Maybe the reason is, people assume the configuration is as has been described above, I dunno.

However, as I recall, the 5th and 6th valves are Flat Whole Step and 2 Whole Step, respectively. So with that horn, whichever you prefer of the most popular systems, you can take your pick. Disadvantages - well, it is pretty heavy, and the 5th and 6th valves are set up for left hand ops.

The current owner, a regular with my church choir until recently, bought it from Floyd Cooley back around 1970 (?). It's fairly even-tempered, especially for an Alex. And it has the characteristic sound -- in spades.

[eupher61]

OK, everybody has answered what a 5th valve does; nobody answered his initial question why a 5th valve whole step tubing is longer than 1st valve whole step tubing.

um...between this and Steve Ferguson, as well as multiple others, it's been covered pretty specifically...

to add my little bit to the length of the 5th valve question--

It's the same as a single trigger trombone having, in real practice, only 6 positions with the trigger. As mentioned, the valve by itself is fine, but with other slides added there is need for extra length. The more combined valves, the more the total length is short--thus, the sharp 1-3 combination, for example.

[Alex C]

OK, everybody has answered what a 5th valve does; nobody answered his initial question why a 5th valve whole step tubing is longer than 1st valve whole step tubing.

I don't know if I'm translating what you said or not. As a close friend of mine says, "I've got a small brain."

The fifth valve is longer because as you combine valves, the tubing is increasingly too short. For instance:

You may be able to adjust your first valve slide so that it is "in tune." You can also adjust your second valve slide to be "in tune." Uh oh, when you employ both at the same time, you don't have enough tubing. This commonly leads to tubists pulling the first valve slide on notes with 1&2 combinations.

The more tubing you employ, the sharper it gets (e.g., 1&3 is sharper than 2&3). Everyone is aware that the 1-2-3 valve combination is so sharp that it almost demands the addition of a fourth valve to be played in tune. Still, 4-2 is a bit sharp but we learn to work with it.

When you play low F on a CC tuba you have two options, 1-4 which is not long enough to play the note in tune and 1-2-4 which is too long. ERGO the advent of the 5th valve which is longer that 1st but shorter than the 1&2 combination.

With this longer 5th valve tubing available you can (conceivably) play the chromatics down to the pedal tone, in tune. Or at least it's workable.

This leads to discussions about alternate tuning of the other valves slides. For instance, players from the 1930's through the 50's often pulled the third valve slide so that it played the equivilent of the "common" 2&3 combination. That, in turn lead some to pull the fourth slide to play the equivilent of 1-2-3... but in tune.

I find the 5th valve to be invaluable to good intonation. Mostly below the staff but it gets a lot of usage.

We spent weeks on this in Intonation Inspector School. The most common citation is issued for high school tuba players with their third valve slide pushed all the way in. It's so common we're running public service announcements about it on radio. It has replaced the ad about the 20,000 bassoon fingerings (one of them HAS to be in tune) but that's another topic too.

[iiipopes]

Hey, Alex -- you got it, just said in a different way.

Now, here's some more food for thought: On most really old tubas and souzys, before a 5th valve, or even a 4th valve became common, all the valve slides were made longer than "theoretical," so that you could lip slightly but never have to pull. For example, 1 would be a shade longer so that 1-2 would not be sharp, and 3rd would definately be made longer so 2-3 was in tune without pulling, and so along with 1 being longer was less of a lip down for 1-3 combinations.